Pre-Order vs. Pre-Pay

[Jazz]

Affront, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Chas seemed to think differently, at least based on his response. Even polite, constructive criticism is generally received better in private in my experience. YMMV. -- jim

Wow....tact....

 

[Portal]

pward,

It still doesn't make it a foreseeable problem, if the same printer (I'm guessing it's the same) delivered on time for their other products.

Sure, it's a forseeable problem. Printer foul-ups happen often enough that they're always a scenario worth considering.

Or, better yet, if you see it as a foreseeable problem, why are you continuing to post about it so much?

I'm only continuing to post because you seem interested in challenging my perspective. If ya want debate, you'll get it. It's one of the reasons I use Web forums.

Why aren't you complaining about Pitman's lack of foresight? You predicted the possibility with your line of reasoning... why didn't Pitman?

How is Pitman accountable to any of the problem? He paid his money before there was any product. He showed up to deliver his part of the bargain in a timely way.

 

[ASLSARGE]

The issue "was" for me that I pre-ordered a game that was supposed to be imminently released, but it was not released until months later, and the company never sent me (or anybody else, I presume) an announcement that there would be a delay or an option to opt out of the pre-order system. <snip>

You are correct. We did not mail any notices to any customers about the delay. Does MMP mail anyone a letter saying their order is delayed? Apart from posting on their website, on CSW, and from Chas Argent posting on these forums I haven't seen anything. And there is no opt-out currently in our system. However, Chas DID notify customers via these forums each and every step of the way.
See thread "Confirmation of Pre-Orders" post 2
See thread "BFP Product Announcement" posts 94,102,104,117,128,130,136,138,139,154,155,170,177,185,206 and 232. Don't really see how we failed to keep the customers uninformed as to the status of the products in question.
Not trying to start another arguement, just pointing out we DID keep folks informed which is contradictory to your statement above. Again, anyone not comfortable with pre-pay, wait til it's ready. Simple.

 

[Count_Zero]

OK. Let's be serious here. There is not one of you in this forum or otherwise that has enough money (Curt doesn't post here) to do this kind of stuff full time. I include myself in that list. I'm just a poor engineer. So, assuming that all "official" and "TPP" stuff is produced in people's "copious spare time" some realism needs to be injected here.

Most of us work jobs from 7 or 8 to 5 or so. Right? So, when a problem happens at work, what do you do? Fire off an email or pick up the phone, right? The person that you are calling/emailing is also at work, presumably answering his phone/email, so a response/conversation/problem-solving-dialogue is a real possibility. For the "ASL" stuff, however, for those not blessed to have bosses that understand our obsession (which, I assume for most of us is "NO!"), that probably can't start until about 6 allowing time for commute from work and nutritional concerns. So you've got a guy/guys that are available to work on this stuff from like 6-9 or so 5 days a week and 2 weekend days, no portion of which time, said printing companies are open. Add in family and kids and the time is less than that.

That being said, ANY problems that come up are inherently going to take longer to work out simply due to logistical concerns. If Wal-Mart or some other company that was open 24 hours did ASL, you could probably expect response times of the kind you are trying to "attribute" to these "small, niche businesses". I don't know about customer service, as the responses from the third party publishers and MMP that I have received have all been professional and courteous and timely.

There was apparently a printing problem (I do NOT have personal knowledge of this, but that is what I understand from what I have read on the related threads). This was acknowledged by the TPP, there were no excuses given, no defective quality product was shipped to customers, and the issue was to the best of anyone's knowledge not directly associated with the issue at BFP, resolved in as timely a manner as limited communication would allow. Based on acceptable business practice and customer service philosophies that I have observed in both companies that I have worked for and material suppliers, that places BFP among the higher bracket of companies I have observed.

I will NOT say that there is never room for improvement. To do so would be both a lie and against everything I believe as an engineer. I do, however, believe that given the limited amount of time that BFP "employees" have to devote to that business, that the quality of product and their business model is heading in the correct direction and as long as they continue to strive to put out higher quality products than they have previously, and attempts to keep their customers informed of any issues and attempts to resolve them in an equitable fasion for all, I'm not sure any more can be "reasonably" asked of a company forced for capital reasons to adopt such a business model.

I really wish that we judged people by a fair litmus test. You can't really expect BFP, Shwerpunkt, CH, et al. or even MMP to have the same business model and command the same clout as businesses such as Wal-Mart, Lexmark, or any other large OEM or retailer, or for that matter, even small mom-and-pop businesses that their products are their livelihood.

That's all I really wanted to say on the matter, so I'll step down from my soapbox. The flaming can and probably will resume. This will likely fall on deaf ears. Everyone has a right to their opinion. Even people I don't really understand or agree with. Good night. Josh out.

 

[Psycho]

Let's see if I can get all this straight.

A small company (like BFP) should be expected to: 1) not ask for prepay because there might be problems which should be expected and 2) if they do ask for prepay they should ship in a timely manner. So it sounds like they should only ask for prepay if they know everything will be ok which it won't so they shouldn't ask for prepay so they can't get anything printed. Got it! :nuts: Of course they could ship with problems like the Kreta map, which didn't matter to some but you sure raised a stink over though you didn't have it ordered... I guess I think I understand. :argh:

A big company (like MMP) which takes your money only when an item ships should ship an item in a timely manner even with all the bugs still in it instead of getting everything right. Got it! :nuts:

Of course none of this applies to you since you don't preorder or prepay in the first place. Why do these companies even try... oh wait, you think we have enough product and all these companies should start putting their energy into tournaments and getting people to play ASL... but then what happens when somebody wants product and there isn't any... :argh:

 

[paulkenny]

BFP's prepay model is mutually exclusive with only billing until the product is ready. BFP's model was pretty clear to its consumers. BFP needs the prepay to afford to print the product. Pretty clear and pretty straightforward. It seems pretty straightforward that it would difficult to work without a prepay system. It is impossible to forsee problems from the printers. I wasnt even following this product (I dont have an interest in the subject matter) and I was aware of the delay and the printing issue.

Give BFP a break

and for what its worth I didnt think there was anything wrong with Chas's initial response to the initial comment.

 

[dlazov]

rabid anti-dentight that was awsome!

Pre Order/Pre Pay it's all the same to me.

Now how about MMP and that Map Pack? Or was it DB3 that has been on preorder for 2 or 3 year?

I don't see an issue with 85 days, 3 years yes. Or was it Grand Uropa and the East for 12 years of investing your money? 85 days is not so bad...but hey...the Pengiuns beat the Red Wings that is all that matters....

 

[Chas Argent]

Chas A,

I dunno, my VotG rules seem to have a lot of "Copyright 2007" written all over the bottom. Hence, my opinion of a 2007 product released late. :smoke:

Ahh, but the last components arrived from the printer and the first copies assembled on the first day of Winter Offensive, 2008.

Like Patton said, I was there :headbang:

 

[Chas Argent]

Now how about MMP and that Map Pack? Or was it DB3 that has been on preorder for 2 or 3 year?

I hope you have at least one of each lined up...

 

[sswann]

Polite and Pitman.
The only thing in common here is the P.
One of them does not know the meaning of polite.

 

[fwheel73]

There was zero that was unfriendly in what I did do, Jim, so your suggestion is essentially pointless:

"Leaving that aside, I would like to request that BFP3 not be put up for pre-order until it is very nearly ready to be released. There was a lengthy delay with the last one, longer than I had anticipated. Thanks."

It is impossible to see that as an "affront." Clearly Brian did not see it that way, as he had a very gracious response.

Mark,
But it was just, maybe, an unnecessary comment. I think we have cleared this whole thing up now. Prepay/subscription does have a place in the world of ASL and it is completely voluntary (do it or not do it). Things were said in several threads that might have been better left unsaid or said differently.... and I have now forgotten what it was--I still have problems with the ASLRB2 . You have a good site that is very helpful and the TPPs have a mission to produce good ASL products.... and I hope these parties will drive on an give us good stuff!

I am ready to play some ASL.... and prepay/subscribe to something-- MMP or BFP?
Best regards,:salute:
John

 

[Portal]

Sarge,

However, Chas DID notify customers via these forums each and every step of the way.

I don't speak for Pitman, but my guess is here is where we reach the crux of that customer problem. It's unfair to assume the large majority of your customers who pre-pay for products use GS as a primary method for BFP news. I'm pretty sure Pitman is not that active a user here any more so it's very fair that he missed those threads. And he shouldn't be obligated to come here to learn what he needs to know about an order with a particular TPP.

FWIW, I think Boundingfire.com should be the primary vehicle of communication with your customers with respect to overall order status. Don't rely on third-party Web forums.

 

[ASLSARGE]

Sarge,



I don't speak for Pitman, but my guess is here is where we reach the crux of that customer problem. It's unfair to assume the large majority of your customers who pre-pay for products use GS as a primary method for BFP news. I'm pretty sure Pitman is not that active a user here any more so it's very fair that he missed those threads. And he shouldn't be obligated to come here to learn what he needs to know about an order with a particular TPP.

FWIW, I think Boundingfire.com should be the primary vehicle of communication with your customers with respect to overall order status. Don't rely on third-party Web forums.

Marcus:

No doubt a posting on the website FIRST would be helpful and I will be sure to stick that plug into Sam's ear. However, with that being said, the notice that the product was for sale was first posted on these forums LONG before it was listed on the website...and as such I would firmly believe 99% of the eventual purchaser of said products received first "wind" of it's availability here on these "third party forums". It only made sense to continue to notify potential customers here on these forums since I would bet a hefty sum that the majority of said customers visit the forums one hundred times for each single time they visit the BFP website, if not more.
Just a sincere question for you...how often do you visit the BFP website as opposed to visiting these third party forums? Where do you, in reality, believe you personally would first "hear" of such an announcement?
Another sincere statement...thank you for purchasing our products.

 

[pward]

So let me see if I understand you. If you don't like how a company has done something, and you would like them to change, what you SHOULD do is NOT politely ask that in the future they do it a different way (which is what I did; read the message)? Rather, what you SHOULD do is demand a refund for the past item or contact Paypal and try to get Paypal to cancel the payment? I'm at a loss to understand how my way is less friendly or constructive than your way.

No what you shouldn't do is politely ask, and when rebuffed (even if they were rude) threaten them with bad publicity.

While we are at it, what did you do at the time of the offense? Rather than some months later when they were getting ready to release a new product. Your actions at the time will speak volumes on the subject.

 

[pward]

pward,

Sure, it's a forseeable problem. Printer foul-ups happen often enough that they're always a scenario worth considering.

I'm only continuing to post because you seem interested in challenging my perspective. If ya want debate, you'll get it. It's one of the reasons I use Web forums.

How is Pitman accountable to any of the problem? He paid his money before there was any product. He showed up to deliver his part of the bargain in a timely way.

In short, if it's foreseeable by the company, it's foreseeable by the person paying up front. (Or, it's not really foreseeable enough to be a concern.)

Even Pitman admits to being bitten with other preorder systems (scams in some cases) in the past, so it's not like he didn't know that screw-ups happen.

Asking them to change their business methods, then taking the point to the extreme is the objectionable (to me) behavior that Portal is renown for (at least that's my take on his patterns) and something that Pitman appears to be doing with this new crusade. Both of you want publishers to change their ways to suit the individual. Both are airing your respective desires on an internet forum, as if that will give you the leverage you need to obtain the result you want.

Neither want's to recognize that MMP/BFP/whomever is going to run their business the way they see fit. They may take the recommendations of folks who don't publish wargames under advisement, but don't expect them to appoint you to their decision making team.

 

[pward]

However, Chas DID notify customers via these forums each and every step of the way.
See thread "Confirmation of Pre-Orders" post 2
See thread "BFP Product Announcement" posts 94,102,104,117,128,130,136,138,139,154,155,170,177,185,206 and 232. Don't really see how we failed to keep the customers uninformed as to the status of the products in question.

That's all well and good, but since Pitman threw a hissie-fit last summer and went to his own forums, he probably missed the posts.

 

[pward]

It's unfair to assume the large majority of your customers who pre-pay for products use GS as a primary method for BFP news.

And yet you (continually) assume that they should respect and adhere to your business acumen...

 

[Portal]

Sarge,

I appreciate your engagement in this dialogue. I'll give you the most direct, honest answer I can.

how often do you visit the BFP website as opposed to visiting these third party forums? Where do you, in reality, believe you personally would first "hear" of such an announcement?

If I had an order placed directly with BFP, I would first look at the BFP Web site for major product status updates. I would want official information if I thought my order was delayed, so I would look to the most official, credible source that I thought was intended to reach the widest audience of real, paying customers. I know the majority of ASL players don't use online ASL forums on any type of regular basis, so it makes sense to go to the company's official Web site.

Hope this is helpful.

 

[Portal]

pward,

Both of you want publishers to change their ways to suit the individual. Both are airing your respective desires on an internet forum, as if that will give you the leverage you need to obtain the result you want.

Quit the arrogant grandstanding and fumbling at trying to speak for me, or Pitman, for that matter. If you want to know what I want, ask me what I want. I can tell you: I'm here to discuss and debate. I bring up "controversial" topics because I find them the most interesting to discuss (I find they're much more interesting than Psycho's girly pics or best guesses where Cousin Darrell is hiding out this month).

If I wanted anybody to do anything on my behalf, I would ask them directly and well away from the likes of trolls such as yourself.

Neither want's to recognize that MMP/BFP/whomever is going to run their business the way they see fit.

I'm not going to speak for Pitman, but for myself, this is horse-bluey. I'm not placing any expectations on BFP at all, because I'm not interested in the pre-pay concept anyways, regardless of who the producer is on the other end. I haven't even bought a BFP product (yet).

 

[dlazov]

I hope you have at least one of each lined up...

Yep I do. Looking forward to DB3 to sort of match up with AOO, but I don't have AP2 boards...