Pre-Order vs. Pre-Pay

[Bob Holmstrom]

Bob,

I've heard this viewpoint before and I believe it's flawed and incomplete:

1) Weekend club events last 2 days, tops. MonsterCon lasts 4 and ASLOK lasts a whole week before Grofaz. Many tourneys run over 3 days. A full day is a big difference, especially when playing bigger stuff.

2) Club events typically don't have a focus upon attracting out-of-town or out-of-immediate-region players. I'm thinking of events that are positioned to people from all over (including a sponsoring hotel in which to stay), allowing people to play people they don't usually play except possibly on VASL (and not everyone uses VASL).

3) "ASL at Home with a Buddy" doesn't qualify for the larger social atmosphere I'm talking about.

Point #1: Many tourneys do not run over 3 days outside of ASLOK. Friday, Saturday, and Sunday is the norm. Just nitpicking though.

Point #2: True, but they aren't going to do anything but welcome visitors.

Point #3: True, but you also have made known your disdain for short scenarios and preference for monster scenarios. If you are playing a monster scenario you are going to be spending 95% with one person: your opponent. I don't see the need to fly or drive a long distance and pay for a hotel to do essentially what one does at home.

Point #4: If i come off as slagging your idea, please don't take it that way. I'm all for more ASL Events, open play or tourney style. I'm only bringing up some possible reasons as to why there aren't more Free Play Events in the ASL scene.

 

[fwheel73]

One other factor for consideration with regards to pre-pay format...
Chas and Sam operate our business model, so I'm not exactly privy to the finer details of the business operations, but the following would apply to most small businesses, especially in today's economy.
[big snip]
I realize I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, and maybe it's just me, but I don't see what the problem is here, or am I just missing "the big picture"?:hmmm:

Sarge,
Thats the word I was missing--business model! I guess Pitman's comments should have been countered with "Hey, buddy this is our business model. If you don't want to pre-pay with all the accompanying perks:nuts:.... then just wait at the end of the line!" Or words to that effect...

It really seemed so simple and unexpected that we got'em all in a wad! Nevertheless, it did clear the air a bit and maybe other TPP and even MMP might consider the pre-pay/subscription mechanism to complete some of the cost intensive ASL products. Like I said this is really a small community... if producers exhibit those characteristics of trust many in the community will back em! I'll back BFP and MMP... and LFT-- all of them put out high quality products and seem to have high cost printing.

Be glad to hear more from the MMP folks on this issue as it relates to the map package.

Best regards,:salute:
John

 

[Portal]

Hi Bob,

No worries, I always like debate.

Sorry for the confusion on point 1. I meant that many tourneys run 3 days, not more than 3 days. I can see where the confusion came from.

While I know most clubs involve great guys who will offer welcomes, that sponsoring hotel is a key component for the travellers. It makes the big point of difference between a club meeting and an ASL event, IMHO.

If you are playing a monster scenario you are going to be spending 95% with one person: your opponent. I don't see the need to fly or drive a long distance and pay for a hotel to do essentially what one does at home.

A reasonable perspective for someone who sees it that way, but I really enjoy the post-play session storytelling, drinking, BSing etc. that comes with an ASL event. It's just as fun as playing the game. There's also the opportunity to play people you wouldn't normally be able to play at home. All worth the travel to me.

 

[Bob Holmstrom]

Dave writes:

The pre-pay system seems to be the best option for all parties involved, and the nice thing about it is no one is required to pre-pay if that is not something they feel comfortable in doing. You can always wait till the product is actually printed and in hand, and then order it, albeit at a higher price since by then the incentive of a pre-pay discount will have been removed.
I realize I'm not the sharpest tool in the shed, and maybe it's just me, but I don't see what the problem is here, or am I just missing "the big picture"?


I was going to post something similar.

I agree with you. It's not like pre-pay/pre-order is something new to the wargaming scene. Nor are printing errors and shipping delays on wargames.

If one doesn't like to wait after paying for a wargame, then don't pre-order and wait for the game's general release.

I don't get what the issue was or is.

 

[fwheel73]

Then there are actually three. In addition to to two you mention, the Texas Team Tournament is also open-play. We go four days and folks can play whatever they like against whomever they like over those four days.
[Big Snip]
I have been trying to attend more tournaments around the country to support not only the other tournaments, but to get folks to come to Texas and experience us.

Rick

Rick,
Look forward to it.... Fort is flying in... and yea, the food in Big T is good--Barbeque, Steak and Mexican!

Best regards,:salute:
John

 

[cujo8-1]

Rick,
... and yea, the food in Big T is good--...and Mexican!

Best regards,:salute:
John

You Cannibal!

 

[pward]

pward,

IMHO, if a company could feasibly expect unforeseen delays (printer foul-ups are par for the course within the publishing biz), don't ask for payment prior to shipping. Most companies sure would be chasing the customer if he didn't pay after 30 days or so of receiving a currently unpaid order. I don't buy the double-standard.

The only aspect I don't agree with is the pre-payment concept. I don't think it's in my (the customer's) interest. I'll buy a product when it's ready.

Here's the key, you don't have to accept the double standard. You (or Pitman, or anyone else) don't have to use the pre-payment system you/he/they find unreliable.

You shouldn't expect that the company will change their position simply because you're irritated with their performance. (Neither should Pitman.)

Edit:
I must be used to your inane logic, because I missed this at first: "if a company could feasibly expect unforeseen delays"

They aren't unforeseen delays if they were feasibly expected. The two are mutually exclusive.

 

[Portal]

pward,

Sure, I'll clean up the language for you if it's so essential for you to understand my point. Problems with the printer are foreseeable problems any publishing company should expect may occur. They just don't know if it will happen or not on any particular print run.

You shouldn't expect that the company will change their position simply because you're irritated with their performance. (Neither should Pitman.)

It's more than fair to expect a company to play by the same rules they ask their customers to play. If you want payment within 30 days of shipping, ship the dang product within 30 days of accepting the customer's money.

Now with the BFP scenario, I'm cool with it because they're providing special discounts for customers who choose to show faith via pre-pay. That's finding the necessary middle ground to me.

 

[pward]

pward,

Sure, I'll clean up the language for you if it's so essential for you to understand my point. Problems with the printer are foreseeable problems any publishing company should expect may occur. They just don't know if it will happen or not on any particular print run.

It's more than fair to expect a company to play by the same rules they ask their customers to play. If you want payment within 30 days of shipping, ship the dang product within 30 days of accepting the customer's money.

Now with the BFP scenario, I'm cool with it because they're providing special discounts for customers who choose to show faith via pre-pay. That's finding the necessary middle ground to me.

It still doesn't make it a foreseeable problem, if the same printer (I'm guessing it's the same) delivered on time for their other products. Or, better yet, if you see it as a foreseeable problem, why are you continuing to post about it so much? If you could foresee it, wasn't that in the range of possibilities for the pre-pay arrangement you accepted (if you actually did preorder)? (Replace you with Pitman as needed, I know he preordered.)

Why aren't you complaining about Pitman's lack of foresight? You predicted the possibility with your line of reasoning... why didn't Pitman?

If you want "ship in 30 days" terms, then wait for them. What BFP offered (as I understand it) was "ship when printed and delivered to us", with all that implies to anyone who bothered to think about it.

 

[MLaPanzer]

Well, Unless your an MP you aint crap.............................:nuts:



I kid I kid lol

Scott

Right it means your color blind or an idiot. Which are you?:laugh:

 

[Pitman]

Pitman's point is valid only for Pitman, he doesn't speak for all of the ASL community. If he was that irked about the delay, he could have contacted BFP for a refund, or gone through the right channels at paypal. (If that's even possible, I don't use paypal.) He hasn't mentioned (or I haven't noticed it mentioned) that he tried either approach before he asked them to change their ways.

So let me see if I understand you. If you don't like how a company has done something, and you would like them to change, what you SHOULD do is NOT politely ask that in the future they do it a different way (which is what I did; read the message)? Rather, what you SHOULD do is demand a refund for the past item or contact Paypal and try to get Paypal to cancel the payment? I'm at a loss to understand how my way is less friendly or constructive than your way.

 

[Darrell Andersen]

I wouldn't be surprised if when I get home tonight there are 15 of you yahoos in my living room arguing about this. You are truly impressive in your omnipresence.

 

[Jazz]

....omnipresence.

Please.....ubiquity....let's use words that rise to the level of the discussion, shall we?

 

[Pitman]

If one doesn't like to wait after paying for a wargame, then don't pre-order and wait for the game's general release.

I don't get what the issue was or is.

The issue "was" for me that I pre-ordered a game that was supposed to be imminently released, but it was not released until months later, and the company never sent me (or anybody else, I presume) an announcement that there would be a delay or an option to opt out of the pre-order system. I did not care for this, as it is not the way most pre-order systems work, and I asked them to change their system for their next release. This seems pretty reasonable to me. They are always free to note my suggestion but disagree, which is basically what Brian Blad did.

Now the issue "is" that they will not change their system, either to replicate other standard pre-order systems, or in some other way try to guarantee a timely delivery to people who have given them money. So naturally they have lost me as a pre-order customer. Like many long time wargamers, I have been burned in the past by giving money to a wargame company ahead of time (all the way back to SPI, when I paid for a subscription I never got), so I am a once-bitten twice shy kind of guy. If, at some point, they develop a more reasonable system, perhaps I'll reconsider.

 

[Gunner Scott]

Here you go pitman, just for you:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cCeP6lLxJ9I


Scott

 

[Michael Dorosh]

The issue "was" for me that I pre-ordered a game that was supposed to be imminently released, but it was not released until months later, and the company never sent me (or anybody else, I presume) an announcement that there would be a delay or an option to opt out of the pre-order system. I did not care for this, as it is not the way most pre-order systems work, and I asked them to change their system for their next release. This seems pretty reasonable to me. They are always free to note my suggestion but disagree, which is basically what Brian Blad did.

Now the issue "is" that they will not change their system, either to replicate other standard pre-order systems, or in some other way try to guarantee a timely delivery to people who have given them money. So naturally they have lost me as a pre-order customer. Like many long time wargamers, I have been burned in the past by giving money to a wargame company ahead of time (all the way back to SPI, when I paid for a subscription I never got), so I am a once-bitten twice shy kind of guy. If, at some point, they develop a more reasonable system, perhaps I'll reconsider.

And until then, you'll order every ASL product they make anyway, since you run a review site which is dependent on having up to date information on those items on the site. So BFP has lost absolutely NOTHING in the process. In fact, they gain, because you'll lose on the pre-pay/pre-order discount.

Genius.

 

[Sparafucil3]

So let me see if I understand you. If you don't like how a company has done something, and you would like them to change, what you SHOULD do is NOT politely ask that in the future they do it a different way (which is what I did; read the message)? Rather, what you SHOULD do is demand a refund for the past item or contact Paypal and try to get Paypal to cancel the payment? I'm at a loss to understand how my way is less friendly or constructive than your way.

Perhaps a more friendly way would have been to send Chas an email and ask him privately. He may have been more receptive and less likely to see it as an affront or an attempt to publicly embarrass him. -- jim

 

[Pitman]

There was zero that was unfriendly in what I did do, Jim, so your suggestion is essentially pointless:

"Leaving that aside, I would like to request that BFP3 not be put up for pre-order until it is very nearly ready to be released. There was a lengthy delay with the last one, longer than I had anticipated. Thanks."

It is impossible to see that as an "affront." Clearly Brian did not see it that way, as he had a very gracious response.

 

[Sparafucil3]

There was zero that was unfriendly in what I did do, Jim, so your suggestion is essentially pointless:

"Leaving that aside, I would like to request that BFP3 not be put up for pre-order until it is very nearly ready to be released. There was a lengthy delay with the last one, longer than I had anticipated. Thanks."

It is impossible to see that as an "affront." Clearly Brian did not see it that way, as he had a very gracious response.

Affront, like beauty, is in the eye of the beholder. Chas seemed to think differently, at least based on his response. Even polite, constructive criticism is generally received better in private in my experience. YMMV. -- jim

 

[Kevin Kenneally]

I wouldn't be surprised if when I get home tonight there are 15 of you yahoos in my living room arguing about this. You are truly impressive in your omnipresence.

I would recommend NOT going to the Gamesquad Forums tonight.

It may get "ugly"....