Pre-game Concealment

Hexagoner

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I'm starting to play a scenario where only one side sets up onboard (other side enters on Turn 1). The side setting up onboard is also given ten concealment counters in their OB. I have read and re-read A12.12, and still can't get a clear answer (to my satisfaction, at least).

My question is if my entire OB can be setup concealed AND all ten concealment counters can be set up as Dummies? Or must the ten concealment counters be used for BOTH dummies and concealing real units?

Thanks in advance,
Hex
 

Georgii2222

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Hexagoner said:
I'm starting to play a scenario where only one side sets up onboard (other side enters on Turn 1). The side setting up onboard is also given ten concealment counters in their OB. I have read and re-read A12.12, and still can't get a clear answer (to my satisfaction, at least).

My question is if my entire OB can be setup concealed AND all ten concealment counters can be set up as Dummies? Or must the ten concealment counters be used for BOTH dummies and concealing real units?

Thanks in advance,
Hex
When only one side sets up on board, all of the defender's units are concealed at game start (prior to the attacker being able to look at the board). Any '?' counters in the OB are meant as dummies.

A12.12: ....Therefore, if one side begins with no forces on board, the other side will be able to place "?" on all of its non-Dummy units after placing those units (before the opponent may look at the board)....
 
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Hexagoner

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Thanks Jeff. Thats the sentence I kept reading. The implication is that the Dummies use the OB-given ? counters, although it didn't explicitely say that.

Hex
 

Jazz

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Hexagoner said:
Thanks Jeff. Thats the sentence I kept reading. The implication is that the Dummies use the OB-given ? counters, although it didn't explicitely say that.

Hex
Note also, that you cannot "conceal" a dummy. In other words, if you want to make a stack that looks like a concealed squad, you need to use 2 of the OOB given ? counters to make that stack. You don't get to put down OOB given ? counters and then get to "conceal" them with another ? counter.
 

Dr Zaius

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Just to be clear, the side which starts completely offboard also get "?" on all of its good order units.
 

Roy

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Also, If you have any Guns or Vehicles you can trade 1/2" dummies for 5/8" dummies to make vehicle locations confusing. I've seen people forego the automatic GUN HIP in order to make two or three or more stacks of 5/8" dummies with only one of them actually a Gun.


Dude, you can have a ton of fun with Dummies.............:D
 

apbills

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thebigbad said:
Also, If you have any Guns or Vehicles you can trade 1/2" dummies for 5/8" dummies to make vehicle locations confusing. I've seen people forego the automatic GUN HIP in order to make two or three or more stacks of 5/8" dummies with only one of them actually a Gun.


Dude, you can have a ton of fun with Dummies.............:D
This is used effectively when you want to set the gun up in non-concealment terrain.
 

Jack Dionne

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apbills said:
This is used effectively when you want to set the gun up in non-concealment terrain.
I am glad this thread was started. I don’t have my rulebook here while posting this question.

I am playing OVHS we are on 19PM campaign day. I purchased a whack of concealment counters.

Here is the problem. My opponent says that I can only set up dummy stacks in concealment terrain. I set up dummy stacks in foxholes that are in open ground. Whose is correct?
 

Jazz

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Jack said:
I am glad this thread was started. I don’t have my rulebook here while posting this question.

I am playing OVHS we are on 19PM campaign day. I purchased a whack of concealment counters.

Here is the problem. My opponent says that I can only set up dummy stacks in concealment terrain. I set up dummy stacks in foxholes that are in open ground. Whose is correct?
Your opponent is correct. You can only set up dummies in ? terrain A12.12. You can conceal units in non-? terrain if the other guys enter from off board. But even then, true dummies can only set up in " terrain.

Jazz
 

Jazz

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apbills said:
This is used effectively when you want to set the gun up in non-concealment terrain.
Umm, not really. A12.12 specifes that dummies need to set up in ? terrain.
 

Jack Dionne

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Jazz said:
Umm, not really. A12.12 specifes that dummies need to set up in ? terrain.
Jazz
I don’t have my rulebook when submitting this post. I do however remember reading something about being able to set up dummy stacks as emplaced guns or wording to that effect.

Why would the option be given in the first place? Guns setting up hip seem to have a greater advantage.

Any help would be appreciated.
 

Georgii2222

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Jack said:
Jazz
I don’t have my rulebook when submitting this post. I do however remember reading something about being able to set up dummy stacks as emplaced guns or wording to that effect.

Why would the option be given in the first place? Guns setting up hip seem to have a greater advantage.

Any help would be appreciated.
"A12.11.....A "?" Dummy stack can claim to be an Emplaced Gun (without Emplacement TEM) or a vehicle but, except for moving, is treated like a ½" Dummy stack for concealment loss...."

This even eludes me.... I don't know if that means that it *can* set up in non-? terrain or not. I don't know why that ability would be made available unless you could set up in non-concealment terrain.
 

Jazz

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Jack said:
Jazz
I don’t have my rulebook when submitting this post. I do however remember reading something about being able to set up dummy stacks as emplaced guns or wording to that effect.

Why would the option be given in the first place? Guns setting up hip seem to have a greater advantage.

Any help would be appreciated.
Hmmm, it seems that some other folks have come up with a rules quote that negates my reference to A12.12 (I believe they quote A12.11)? I guess the whole higher number rule thing is a can of worms that can be opened by those with a book and the time....Did this change in V2?

As far as setting up a gun in non? terrain. Of course, setting up a gun HIP is prefered to setting up on board concealed. Sometimes, there just are no good places (LOS, probable avenue of approach, survivability etc...) to set up a gun in ? terrain.

"Still scratchin' my head..."
Jazz
 

alanp

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. . .or there's the 'do-the-unexpected' approach to setting up. Suppose you've got 2 AFV, a Gun and some Dummies in your OB and you're the Defender. Place 4 5/8" stacks w/ "?" on top. Are two of them Dummies (with a HIP Gun still unaccounted for)? You're giving your opponent a PMC and if time is a constraint in the scenario, it may cost him.
 

zgrose

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Since A12.12 specifically says

The player setting up first in a scenario does so out of vision of his opponent, and after setting up his regular units may place only scenario OB-designated "?" at first -- but only in Terrain listed in red in the Terrain Chart/Desert Terrain Chart/PTO Terrain Chart.
and no specific exceptions elsewhere, I'd have to assume there are some situations where it may be beneficial to claim to be a Gun instead of a vehicle but I don't see any provision to place ? in non concealment terrain.
 

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Hill top

Hey All,

nrbh..
1)Does a hill top count as concealment terrain if the opponent does not have any units at the same or higher levels? (or enters from off board)
2) If so can a hip unit set up hidden on the hill?

Jimfer
 

apbills

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Well, I did forget about that little A12.12 stipulation about dummy setup. I think I was think more along the lines of large ? for when you have vehicles, which could be setup in concealment terrain, and then the dummies could work for you.

that's my story, and I'm stickin to it! :p
 

Jazz

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jimfer said:
Hey All,

nrbh..
1)Does a hill top count as concealment terrain if the opponent does not have any units at the same or higher levels? (or enters from off board)
2) If so can a hip unit set up hidden on the hill?

Jimfer
And just by way of clarification....a hill is not ? terrain for purposes of ? counter placement.

But.... it also is not open ground for purposes of interdiction and/or maintaining concealment during Assault Movement.

Concealment terrain does not equal non-open ground.

"god help me but I love this game...."
Jazz
 
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