Pre-game concealment stripping question

[Chris Bryer]

Can a dummy stack on a roof strip an opponents non-dummy stack on another roof within LOS during the pregame?

Thanks

 

[Robin Reeve]

I don't think so.
There is no concealment loss before play.
After setup, the owner of the dummy stack would have to prove that it is not a dummy stack. If both stacks are on rooftops at the same level and are both dummy stacks, nothing happens - but if any real unit is in LOS at their level or higher, the dummies are eliminated.

 

[Chris Bryer]

@Robin Reeve Thank you good sir

 

[Eagle4ty]

Not so as one may remain concealed in OG [EXC: Vehicles] as long it doesn't conduct any concealment loss activity or is not revealed by detection {See remarks for cases ABCDGH&L on A12.121 CONCEALMENT LOSS/GAIN TABLE} . However, if the side setting up first had a concealed unit (even a dummy unit) with a LOS to a location in OG that the opponent wishes to place a concealed unit they would be unable to do so because the requirement for gaining concealment requires only an unbroken unit (dummy units are included here) to have LOS to a OG location to deny gaining concealment. There is no such gobbely gook as a real unit would automatically strip the concealment of a dummy unit in OG simply because it is in OG. As noted by your initial post rooftops & hills are where one this most pops up as if receiving the HA TEM one can set up a dummy unit in otherwise OG whereas once an opponent has a LOS to the location and it IS considered OG (no TEM applicable), a concealed unit may remain concealed but concealment cannot be gained.

 

[Robin Reeve]

B23.82 "... A unit can remain hidden or concealed on a rooftop only if there are no Good Order enemy ground units within 16 hexes of it that are at the same or higher level with a LOS to it; these same restrictions apply to gaining "?" on a rooftop [EXC: the enemy units need only be unbroken (as opposed to Good Order) to prohibit such gain]."

 

[Larry]

the key word is "remain." Keeping concealment is easier than gaining concealment. If the player that sets up first puts a unit in a location that has LOS to a location that is OG to that unit, the second player cannot place nor gain ?.

 

[Robin Reeve]

And a rooftop Location is even less friendly for concealed units to keep concealment than Open Ground, as they immediately lose concealment if in LOS of a Good Order enemy unit at their level or higher.

 

[Eagle4ty]

And a rooftop Location is even less friendly for concealed units to keep concealment than Open Ground, as they immediately lose concealment if in LOS of a Good Order enemy unit at their level or higher.

All these years and never caught that one!

 

[Robin Reeve]

All these years and never caught that one!

Admittedly, rooftops don't come in play very frequently.

 

[EagleIV]

I don't think so.
There is no concealment loss before play.
After setup, the owner of the dummy stack would have to prove that it is not a dummy stack. If both stacks are on rooftops at the same level and are both dummy stacks, nothing happens - but if any real unit is in LOS at their level or higher, the dummies are eliminated.

I picture a situation where both players have real concealed units on the rooftops, but neither is willing to show a unit so all the units stay concealed for a while until someone does something like run in the open where the only thing that can see them is the "dummy" on the roof.

 

[Eagle4ty]

I picture a situation where both players have real concealed units on the rooftops, but neither is willing to show a unit so all the units stay concealed for a while until someone does something like run in the open where the only thing that can see them is the "dummy" on the roof.

Not in setup though as only the player setting up 1st would be able to place a dummy stack on the rooftop as if you can't gain concealment normally, you couldn't set up concealed either (barring an SSR to the contrary).