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Menschenfresser

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I think a greater insult to Richard Perle cannot be found than to imply the strong-handed tactics he's promoted have actually undermined American imperialism. :devil:

Excellent article.
 

Brevet

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I read Ferguson's book, Empire. It's a pretty good book, I recommend it. I also read Bill O'Reilly's latest book, I can't recommend it.

Our modem and router at home are toasted, what else do I have to do? :TRUCE:
 

LaPalice

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The beginning is interesting, because it says that Bush didn’t try to present another resolution to the security council because he wouldn’t have had a majority, with only 3 states voting with him. And then he couldn’t do what he wanted, isolating France and saying that if the UN failed to give the authorization of the attack, it was only because of France, not because the majority of the country in the world was against the war.
I say that because I remember that Blair or someone else pretended that if the Americans didn’t present a second resolution, it was because of the French veto and the fact that nobody wanted to vote if it was sure that France should veto it.
No, in fact Bush knew very well that the majority of the countries were against his idea of invading Iraq.

LaPalice.
 

Menschenfresser

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Bush was always ready to denounce the UN as useless, and probably would have gladly blamed it on France had it happened. They blamed France and Germany anyway. It was always coming out of his mouth. He said constantly leading up to Iraq that if the UN failed to act, he would, and that a failure to act on the UN's part only meant it had dropped the ball.

In essence, it meant 'yes' either way. One way, he gets consensus. The other way, he gets to make his rightwing constitutents happy, by (in their eyes) calling the UN's bluff...not that it had put anything on the table to begin with. The argument was steered to make it look like someone had failed concerning Iraq. I do think several softer elements in the administration saw an inkling of what this article contains. I'd wager Blair and Powell did. They saw that a vote in the security council would legitimize the coming war...or at least soften it.

Those two or three months were the strangest period I've lived through in this country.
 

Dicke Bertha

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Very interesting article. Beware of empires, they have little to offer the emperor... Didn't one of your founding fathers say something about America should not seek monsters abroad to destroy... I always thought that the difference between left and right (Democrats and Republicans at least) in the US was smaller than in Europe (socialists-liberals-conservatives). Lately I have come to wonder whether the opposite is true. I also always thought the Republicans were mainly isolationists, Democrats interventionalists, now what have we?I n my view, America is embarking on the imperialist road. Being conservative and isolationist (I think every people has the right to live in ignorance, poverty and oppression) I have little taste for this.

As to Niall Ferguson, well, from reading Empire and The Pity of War, I must say he is brilliant.
 

Cheetah772

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Hello,

Humm...

Which would I rather to be, a terrorist and dictatorship appeaser or an American who is keenly concerned about the United States' national security and a desire to liberate Iraqis from a madman?

At least, that's an easy choice to make. Better than the rest of world.

Dan
 

JAMiAM

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Cheetah772 said:
Hello,

Humm...

Which would I rather to be, a terrorist and dictatorship appeaser or an American who is keenly concerned about the United States' national security and a desire to liberate Iraqis from a madman?

At least, that's an easy choice to make. Better than the rest of world.

Dan
LoL Dan. With you it's always "Which sidewalk should I drive my Hummer on? The Left sidewalk, or the Right sidewalk?"

Did you ever stop to think that with a modicum of cooperation, we might all be able to get along with driving on the road? Or, that by looking at a map, and just a wee bit of planning, we can get where we need to go, with a lot less strife?
 

Cheetah772

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JAMiAM said:
LoL Dan. With you it's always "Which sidewalk should I drive my Hummer on? The Left sidewalk, or the Right sidewalk?"

Did you ever stop to think that with a modicum of cooperation, we might all be able to get along with driving on the road? Or, that by looking at a map, and just a wee bit of planning, we can get where we need to go, with a lot less strife?
Ahh...

So you would rather stop in the middle of road and appease a dictator or a terrorist? For me, I'd just sooner roll right over him! It's a lot easier when you think about it. I am not going to stop in the middle of road so I could ask a car driver miles in back for permission to roll over either a terrorist or a dictator.

Think about it. Not everything has to be done in the name of cooperation.

Dan
 

jlbetin

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I took time to read this article.

The author is right USA is better seen as Friendly country, Peace and democracy keeper when working through world institutions as UN and other UN related agencies. Rather than working unilateraly. Because in this case we saw USA as an ogre or like a gang imposing his will on all districts of the world. :devil:

He is right too when he says that in most country of the world USA is an exemple, a reference. But IMHO Bush and his hawks is killing this good "image" and replace it as an Imperialistic one which looks worst than the Soviet one.

This policy let France Germany Belgium Russia and others European countries to link them in a defensive ring against the US will. Thanks to GWB the European army took birth due to his policy:cool:

Worst the USA is unifying agaist them all the hatreds of the thrid world countries, especialy the muslim ones. At the end of the IRAQ war it was a big hope that Bush impose peace in middle east crisis !!!!
It is worst than before the war opening.:cheeky:

GWB was hopping to impose a western like democracy in Iraq, read the lattest shiites leaders declaration about poll. They want to declare their Islamic Republic. And don't worry it will come without fail :confused:

About UN, It a unesufull institution just good enough to provide help and food to polulation. And now GWB ask for UN to help him to resolve the IRAQ crisis.

The most appaling in this story, is the number of poor US soldiers killed after action -> 300 or may be more.
What I would say will shock many of you but for me they died for nothing.
Because for me , GWB and his hawks did all wrong in this action.
I don't want to open again a fruitless polemic. But it is too much blood for an uncertain result :dead:

Der WandserSadSoSad :cry:
 

Cheetah772

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Hello Jlbetin,

Thank you for once proving your true colors. I sincerely believe the Euope really wants to appease every dictator or terrorist it encounters. That despite the stigma of two world wars and several modern colonial wars, the Europe is just full of what I would like to call, "sissycats."

If you want to bathe in hypocrisy, be my guest, but now, America is no longer the "super-sissycat" of the world, it is acting like a true superpower. Take notice of this, my dear French friend, America will determine the best course of action in her interests, not the rest of world.

My dear French friend, you do not vote in America, it is MY vote that will be heard loudly and clearly. Bush is doing what I WANT him to do, he has to listen to the American public first, not the world. That is exactly what an American president should do.

France never asked for America's permission in pursuing her French interests in Africa. Middle East is our area, why should you dare to force America to ask for permission?

I have two words for Europe: SHUT UP.

Dan
 

jlbetin

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Cheetah772 said:
Hello Jlbetin,

I have two words for Europe: SHUT UP.

Dan
Dear Dan,

Just a question ?
Is this the Republican vision of Democracy ?? Just Shut UP :surprise:
It could explain many things.:devil:

Best thoughts from a thirld world democracy, France :D

DerWanderComies
 

JAMiAM

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Cheetah772 said:
Hello Jlbetin,

Thank you for once proving your true colors. I sincerely believe the Euope really wants to appease every dictator or terrorist it encounters. That despite the stigma of two world wars and several modern colonial wars, the Europe is just full of what I would like to call, "sissycats."

If you want to bathe in hypocrisy, be my guest, but now, America is no longer the "super-sissycat" of the world, it is acting like a true superpower. Take notice of this, my dear French friend, America will determine the best course of action in her interests, not the rest of world.

My dear French friend, you do not vote in America, it is MY vote that will be heard loudly and clearly. Bush is doing what I WANT him to do, he has to listen to the American public first, not the world. That is exactly what an American president should do.

France never asked for America's permission in pursuing her French interests in Africa. Middle East is our area, why should you dare to force America to ask for permission?

I have two words for Europe: SHUT UP.

Dan
LoL...there is really nothing that could be added to this.

The sole purpose of my post is to save this tripe for posterity. :nuts:
 

jlbetin

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Cheetah772 said:
Hello Jlbetin,

Thank you for once proving your true colors. I sincerely believe the Euope really wants to appease every dictator or terrorist it encounters. That despite the stigma of two world wars and several modern colonial wars, the Europe is just full of what I would like to call, "sissycats."

Dan
M'bwana Dan

me poor stupid undeveloped French what sissycat is ?

Don't hurt me Great Master representant of the Empire of the Good.
Me poor French, M'bwana Dan, just bad underdeveloped human being representant of Evil Axe.

Thank Great Master to have the condescension to give me your words

Der WanderStupidEuropean
 

jlbetin

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Cheetah772 said:
Hello Jlbetin,

My dear French friend, you do not vote in America, it is MY vote that will be heard loudly and clearly. Bush is doing what I WANT him to do, he has to listen to the American public first, not the world. That is exactly what an American president should do.
Questions:

Why US help contras/Army to remove democratic elected governements see Chile by instance

Why US paid and help some specific political parties in rest of the world

Why US remove Saddam and let many other Dictators in many other countries as in south america ?

France never asked for America's permission in pursuing her French interests in Africa. Middle East is our area, why should you dare to force America to ask for permission?
Why US interfer in all African countries trying to counter act French influence
Why US don't accept the French/European countries policy in Middle east, it is your private Garden

Or More is the World the private Garden of the Great Texas Ranger George Walker Bush

I have two words for Europe: SHUT UP.

Dan[/QUOTE]
If Europe have to shut up let Europe do his own, but it seems that Rumsfeld don't appreciate freedom for others counties appart of USA

Der WanderFree
 

Cheetah772

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JAMiAM said:
LoL...there is really nothing that could be added to this.

The sole purpose of my post is to save this tripe for posterity. :nuts:
Yes....we all know how much you want to sell out America to the world in the name of so-called "cooperation."

At least I am determined to keep America safe in the name of "The United States of America." Can it be said of the same thing for you? I think not.

Go back and whine in your home, basking in the glory of liberalism and anti-Americanism sentiments, in California.

Dan
 

Cheetah772

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jlbetin said:
Questions:

Why US help contras/Army to remove democratic elected governements see Chile by instance

Why US paid and help some specific political parties in rest of the world

Why US remove Saddam and let many other Dictators in many other countries as in south america ?
The United States had to look out for her interests during the Cold War.

We are already paying that price, and we are making it up by removing Saddam from the power in Iraq. As of right now, Libya, North Korea, and Iran are compelled to cooperate if only halfheartedly with the international nuclear watchdogs in order to avoid the American military might. It could have not been done without invading Iraq once for all.

America is making up for her mistakes, can it be said of the same thing for France and the rest of world? I think not.

Please, tell me, my dear French friend, what have France done to encourage the spread of democracy? I tell you, France has not overthrown a dictator, in fact, she endlessly pursued numerous African policies to pacify or appease various pro-French dictators. You are no better than I am.

Why US interfer in all African countries trying to counter act French influence
Why US don't accept the French/European countries policy in Middle east, it is your private Garden

Or More is the World the private Garden of the Great Texas Ranger George Walker Bush
Africa? What a stupid comment! Africa is France's playground. Granted, the United States did pursue some interests in Angola and other African nations, however, it is France who takes the lead. Compared to the United States, France is far more aggressive in pursuing her African policy. Compared to the United States, France has a far worse record of supporting various pro-French dictators in place.

Don't you dare to presume you're holding the high ground on America. Don't you dare to be moralistic over America. You are using America for your own preverted French agenda. You are not supporting the democracies of this world, you are subverting them by appeasing the dictatorships. As for the rest of world I am absolutely disgusted with.

You whine like babies when America actively uses her power to protect herself. You whine like babies when the Iraqis are at last given a taste of freedom now that Saddam is gone. You always whine over something that's even remotely connected with America's pursuit of her own national interests.

If Europe have to shut up let Europe do his own, but it seems that Rumsfeld don't appreciate freedom for others counties appart of USA

Der WanderFree
Please tell me how is invading Afghanistan and Iraq not appreciative of democracy now that both have actually far more freedom than what could have been if either country was still under the dictatorships of Saddam and Taliban respectively? Can you tell me that?

Despite all terrorist attacks within Iraq and Afghanistan, many more have been far more appreciative of what the United States did for them. They may not be cheering the US troops on streets, but when they go about working silently and observing the laws of their homelands, then I tell you this, they are silently appreciating how much the United States have given them freedom.

Dan
 

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Dan, here's a question...

given that maybe 10,000 Iraqi civilians died and (speculatively anyways) estimates of Iraqi military casualties topping off around 100,000 (I really have no idea what the figures actually are, these are just the highest estimates I've heard.. no doubt many died) I thought I'd put this question to you, which I caught in some bloggers rant the other day:

An argument that the pro-war people use, but not exclusively them, is that if you have to sacrifice some lives to benefit even more lives, then thats the right thing to do.

If the WTC turns out to be a profitable venture for the USA, not merely economically, but also geo-politically (and this is really a given at this point), would it have been right for Bush to let it happen assuming he had foreknowledge of precisely when and where the attacks would occur?

If you really believe in your "new" argument (as opposed to what you used to tell us was the reason you supported the invasion of Iraq), then I'm curious how you would respond.
 

Cheetah772

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MikeJ said:
Dan, here's a question...

given that maybe 10,000 Iraqi civilians died and (speculatively anyways) estimates of Iraqi military casualties topping off around 100,000 (I really have no idea what the figures actually are, these are just the highest estimates I've heard.. no doubt many died) I thought I'd put this question to you, which I caught in some bloggers rant the other day:

An argument that the pro-war people use, but not exclusively them, is that if you have to sacrifice some lives to benefit even more lives, then thats the right thing to do.

If the WTC turns out to be a profitable venture for the USA, not merely economically, but also geo-politically (and this is really a given at this point), would it have been right for Bush to let it happen assuming he had foreknowledge of precisely when and where the attacks would occur?

If you really believe in your "new" argument (as opposed to what you used to tell us was the reason you supported the invasion of Iraq), then I'm curious how you would respond.
The "new" argument? Just what are you talking about?

I've said all along it was for two primary reasons: the elimination of Iraqi WMD programs and the liberation of Iraqi people. That isn't a new argument, it's the same old I've been using for ages.

I bet the numbers of Iraqi casualties you got were from some radical left-wing websites claiming all sorts of documentation and evidence that the United States did indeed mess up a lot. For the record, I don't think 100,000 Iraqi soldiers died, or 10,000 civilians for that matter. I believe the real number lies somewhere less than 5,000 or perhaps high as 7,000 casualties. American armed forces are not a bunch of thugs wildly killing everything in sight.

We are not scarificing Iraqi lives, we are scarificing American lives so that Iraqis may at last taste the freedom and the WMD threats Iraq did at one point possessed are no more. Saddam will never return to the power. Indeed, I do honestly feel safer now that Americans are in Iraq. No longer, I have to worry about what will happen down the road for the next 12 years like we did preceding the Iraqi Operation Freedom.

Do you seriously believe that the United States is in for profits? Man, you do need a lot of rewiring if you let conspiracy theories float around a lot inside your head.

Dan
 
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