Post surrender FInnish guerillas

[Mark Stevens]

At present all of the Finnish Armed Forces surrender when Helsinki is taken and, provided the Swedes aren't in the war or the Germans haven't shipped troops there, the Allied player can leave the country.

I was wondering what other players think about the idea of having several small Finnish guerilla units appear after the surrender?

+ It could be argued that, given the Finn's history and the terrain, it's very likely that such resistance would have occured
+ It would stop the Red Army from simply leaving the country ungarrisoned (maybe add NKVD security divisions as in the Baltic States and Bessarabia?)
+ If Sweden is in the war, the Soviets would need to think about their lines of communication if they continue an offensive

- Purely hypothetical; Rumanians, Italians, Bulgarians, etc., didn't do it, so why the Finns? Any OOB very conjectural
- 'Eye candy'; not going to have any real impact on a scenario covering WWII in Europe
- Although there could be up to four different reconstitution hexes (as there are four Finnish formations), it would be possible for the Red Army to surround them and kill each guerilla as it appears. I believe that some players don't like this with the Yugoslav post surrender guerillas and agree a sort of cease fire to avoid bothering with them
- Mark, you should be concentrating on implementing Lou's event saving scheme, not tiddling around with this sort of thing

Welcome any comments.

 

[J. Dhatori]

Well, there were preparations for guerilla war and I think that the finns who had enjoyed 11 years of democracy wouldn't be all that willing to bend under communist rule. They would have propably done the same thing as in the past: ran into the forests...

 

[belgrano]

In the games I've played so far (not that many) even after Finland surrenders, Finish replacement units continue reappearing in Sweden or Northern Finland. Is this just a bug ? I think that a degree of resistance/partisans is somewhat realistic but at quite insignificant levels (nothing like the yugos) thus having little impact on the overall game...

 

[Boonierat]

Finland makes for a ideal partisan country, so I say go for it.

 

[C.Uaua]

I can't talk about other countries but I can explain why Italy didn't develop guerrilla behind allied lines.
Italy was, as everybody knows, relatively unprepared for war and in 1943 (date of surrender) the entire economy was on its knees. Soldiers were demotivated and they just wanted to go home, while their families were starving. Mussolini decided to place in Sicily troops coming from that very same place, thinking they'd be more motivated to defend their land. Wrong choice! The most of italian army in Sicily just disbanded and all the soldiers just went back in their homes.
On their side, allies did not use the iron fist in their occupied territories like Germans did. As a result (keep in mind that 30% of the supplies unloaded in the port of Naples had been stolen and sold to the black market) the way of living in the parts of Italy occupied by allies increased.
Keep also in mind that Italy was not completely occupied and both sided rised small armies of Italians to fight the other side. It also happened that regular units composed by Italians fought against each other on Gustav and Gothic lines! People in the north found easier to join the RSI (Repubblica Sociale Italiana) army rather than cross the lines and go to fight guerrilla in the south.
On the other side the brutal regime set up by Germans in the North caused guerrilla to arise against them. Allied were seen as "liberators" from the people that was under nazi occupation. In addition there was not a real awareness of the dark side of USSR and at least half of the partisan groups were communist (communist party has been the second strongest party in Italy after the war). They also WANTED the arrival of red army!!
For this reason strong guerrilla rised against Germany and virtually none against Allies.
I think anyway that finnish situation was completely different (my brother-in-law is finnish, by the way). They fought two wars against USSR, they were involved in the pre-war disorders that striked in Russia, and I think that many finnish would habe been more than happy to fight again in the wilderness against Soviet Army.
My opinion is definitely YES TO FINNISH GUERRILLAS!

By the way... did you place any italian guerrillas against Germany after italian surrender?

 

[Mark Stevens]

Thanks for that. After Italy's surrender Mussolini is rescued by Skorzeny and proclaims the Italian Social Republic in the north, which eventually fields one weak motorised and one weak infantry corps, neither of which will reconstitute if destroyed. About the same time the Allies get two very weak, non-reconstituting guerilla units in Northern Italy, which I'd expect to be easily mopped up if there are any Axis units in the vicinity. They might get lucky and blow the odd bridge or get pushed back into the mountains. If the main Allied forces link up with them, they'll get the chance to become stronger. Nothing's perfect, but I think that represents the situation well enough.

Anyone got any more thoughts on the Finns?

 

[J. Dhatori]

Maybe there could be partisan units if Russians neglet the occupation?

 

[viridomaros]

my oppinion is that guerilla war should be restricted to russia only because of the scope of this game
i don't think it's worth bothering with guerilla like in finland or italy. ( i'm ok with yugos )
units are often corps so guerilla units are too small to be taken into account IMO

 

[Mantis]

I have to agree with Pierre, Mark. It's really just a p.i.t.a. to deal with, but that's about it. First off, I can't understand why anyone would leave the place completely empty after taking Helsinki - all it takes is a few NKVD units to cover the ports, and you've virtually got the entire country sewed up. IMHO, this is worth it just to deny the Axis another (free?) avenue of attack.

If you put those little buggers in there, people like me would have to have a million little ant units up there as well as the port defence to deal with them.

Another point:

In the games I've played so far (not that many) even after Finland surrenders, Finish replacement units continue reappearing in Sweden or Northern Finland. Is this just a bug ?

These units are caught in what is called the Reconstitution loop. When units are destroyed, but are in the process of reconstituting; and then the withdrawl conditions are reached for the parent formation (capture of the nation's capital, etc), the units awaiting reconstitution are not removed from play, and will reconstitute in time, reappearing on the map. (i.e. - 2 Finn units are destroyed, and are due to reconstitue in a few turns. Helsinki falls, and all units are withdrawn. 2 turns later, the two Finn units reappear...)

Ok, this can cause another problem, Mark. In Yugo, when Yugo troops get caught in this loop, they can continually reappear, as the partisans are always giving them entry hexes. It doesn't happen in places like Poland, Belgium, etc, as since there are no partisans, once all the terrain is converted to Axis control, they have no entry hexes available, so they either reconstitute somewhere else, or not at all.

But in Yugo, once that infantry corps has 50% of the rifle squads in place, it will reappear, since the partisans keep creating entry hexes. Then it is (eventually) out of supply, and those RSs are lost to pestilence, or are utterly destroyed by the Axis. And then it happens all over again, for the entire game. As James pointed out one time, it is possible for a few of these units to use almost the entire RS production during the course of a game. I don't think we should create another situation where this can occur.

(In my games, whenever this happens, I agree to let the Yugo reg. army troops flee the country. You can't even just let them sit in one spot safely, as air supply will have them supplied one turn (getting replacements) and unsupplied the next (and losing said replacements) for the entire game. I recently documented this for Pierre (Viri) in our game, with pics of supply/lack of supply, and he agreed to let the Yugos leave).

 

[Mantis]

If we could find a way to do it that would avoid the above, I wouldn't mind seeing it, although it IS still a pita... :laugh:

 

[viridomaros]

hmm
mr EA designer please don't fix that bug, as it is i can have a small chance to see russia running out of manpower in 1942 or so :laugh:

 

[Mantis]

(I'm going to create three new users, and change the voting... )

 

[Mark Stevens]

I suppose that we could put the Finnish regulars on Low Supply (along with the Yugoslavs) to lessen this effect if they get caught in the loop, although that will weaken them in the main fight. Doesn't matter so much for the Yugos as they don't last too long anyway, but it would make it easier for the Soviets to overrun Finland.

Ben's point that a second wave of withdrawals several turns after the first one would solve the problem is correct of course, but Events, Events...

 

[Mantis]

I suppose that we could put the Finnish regulars on Low Supply (along with the Yugoslavs) to lessen this effect if they get caught in the loop, although that will weaken them in the main fight.

Do you recall how many games and how many years it took us to get the balance to where it is now? Leave it alone! I *like* it the way it is!

Doesn't matter so much for the Yugos as they don't last too long anyway, but it would make it easier for the Soviets to overrun Finland.

Ben's point that a second wave of withdrawals several turns after the first one would solve the problem is correct of course, but Events, Events...

(Examines thread) Good point, but your eyes must be better than mine! I don't see that comment anywhere. :whist:

And, like you've said yourself, I think the odd unit the Allies get out of the deal actually adds a bit of flavor; I like the way it works! (Feel like I'm getting a 'bonus' or something...)

 

[Mantis]

Mark - have you read anything about the TOAW clone that Larry is working on? You really should! It's in the main TOAW forum.