Possession of a Gun.

Tim Niesen

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Okay, Steve was wrong. Good. Our time consideration at the game constricts our ability to look at the rules. Steve's always late, and his crazy girlfriend is always expecting him to drive her somewhere before he starts his second job. I spend more time on the bus than playing. My ally says that women are easy to come by, but wargaming opponents are scarce! Easy for him to say. Tim
 

Tim Niesen

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JR, No, by plus 2, I was referring to SWs like PF and ATR which have to hit numbers. These are plus 2 to hit in the advancing fire phase. Correct? Tim
 

jrv

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JR, No, by plus 2, I was referring to SWs like PF and ATR which have to hit numbers. These are plus 2 to hit in the advancing fire phase. Correct?
You were talking about FTs, no? FTs never use TH tables.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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Yes, That confused us. Steve looked at the rules, and he apparently drew the wrong conclusion. Steve is usually good at reading the rules. Not this time. He challenged me on cowering losing rate of fire for a MG. And lost that issue after reading the rules on cowering. Tim
 

Stewart

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Why do two half squads have more PP capacity than a squad? Why can they hold more prisoners? So many questions, young one.

JR
not a question of PP but of stacking.. yes we know its not sensical here.
 

Robin Reeve

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You should have Steve and Don play one another.
Let them debate rules aspects : perhaps could they annulate their mutual, numerous misinterpretations of the rules?
Still take notes when they cannot solve some questions and bring them up here.
 

von Marwitz

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So "crew, a hs, and an un-possessed Gun" in 157 Pillbox.
Crew Posses gun, what happens to HS?
Possibly
1. eject seat for HS
2. KIA
3. Temp overstacking allowed
4. Crew not allowed to posses gun as it would violate a hard stacking limit

1. is the most amusing, but 4. the most likely in a rules sense.
I would agree to your assumption.

von Marwitz
 

jrv

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So "crew, a hs, and an un-possessed Gun" in 157 Pillbox.
Crew Posses gun, what happens to HS?
Possibly
1. eject seat for HS
2. KIA
3. Temp overstacking allowed
4. Crew not allowed to posses gun as it would violate a hard stacking limit

1. is the most amusing, but 4. the most likely in a rules sense.
A squad with underscored ML is manning a Gun in a 1+5+7 pillbox. It rolls > its ELR on a MC and must deploy into two broken halfsquads. How?

JR
 

von Marwitz

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A squad with underscored ML is manning a Gun in a 1+5+7 pillbox. It rolls > its ELR on a MC and must deploy into two broken halfsquads. How?

JR
Indeed, a black spot in the rules.

I would handle it similar to a location with a blaze: The excess HS must leave the PB at the next opportunity or be eliminated. In this case during its upcoming RtPh.

von Marwitz
 

Eagle4ty

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A squad with underscored ML is manning a Gun in a 1+5+7 pillbox. It rolls > its ELR on a MC and must deploy into two broken halfsquads. How?

JR
A Squad (underlined morale or not) would not be allowed to man a gun in a 1 Squad equivalency stacking capacity pillbox under any circumstances as units in a pillbox cannot be over-stacked.
 

jrv

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A Squad (underlined morale or not) would not be allowed to man a gun in a 1 Squad equivalency stacking capacity pillbox under any circumstances as units in a pillbox cannot be over-stacked.
It's not overstacked. A squad is a squad stacking whether it possesses a gun or not. Only a crew or a halfsquad is larger than it would normally be when possessing a gun.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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It's not overstacked. A squad is a squad stacking whether it possesses a gun or not. Only a crew or a halfsquad is larger than it would normally be when possessing a gun.

JR
I still think you're reading something into the rules that are not there. Two HS = Squad; A HS manning a gun = a Squad, thus a Squad manning a gun is a HS greater than the allowed stacking capacity of a 1+* pillbox. IMHO the rules state what you can do, not what you can't do, I do believe that would follow under COWTRA that it would not be allowed. (Been wrong before and most certainly will be again, but I don't believe this time). JMHO:nod:
 

Tater

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Only a crew may use a gunshield, i.e. neither squad, halfsquad nor SMCs may use it [C11.5].

JR
A very counter intuitive rule BTW...apparently, there is special training required in order to effectively stand behind the shield...:dontknow
 

jrv

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I still think you're reading something into the rules that are not there. Two HS = Squad; A HS manning a gun = a Squad, thus a Squad manning a gun is a HS greater than the allowed stacking capacity of a 1+* pillbox. IMHO the rules state what you can do, not what you can't do, I do believe that would follow under COWTRA that it would not be allowed. (Been wrong before and most certainly will be again, but I don't believe this time). JMHO:nod:
I think you are the one reading something into the rules. Per A5.5 "an Infantry crew/HS ... manning a Gun ... is considered equal to a squad for stacking purposes." However there is no rule that says a squad manning a Gun is anything but a squad manning a Gun. Even if you decide that something is implied, there is no rule that says what the stacking equivalence is. Is it one-and-a-half squad equivalents, or two squad equivalents (two HS possessing a Gun), or ten squad equivalents? There is no rule explaining this just because the stacking equivalence of a squad possessing a Gun is the same as that of a squad without a Gun.

JR
 
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jrv

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To go into this a little further, ASL is quite content to work in a "non-mathematical" way. The most well-known is the PP capacity of a MMC. A squad has three PP capacity, while two HS have six PP capacity. The stacking equivalency of a crew/HS manning a Gun is one squad. What is the stacking equivalency of a crew/HS manning two Guns? Or twelve Guns? One squad. What is the hindrance DRM of a wreck? +1. What is the hindrance DRM of twelve wrecks (in the same hex)? +1. ASL uses mathematics, but is not bound to use it at all times. It's easy to get caught off-base by applying mathematical reasoning when the ASLRB has decided to forgo it.

JR
 

Tim Niesen

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I was going to start another thread. Funny comment Robin! But I am supposed to know the.rules before we play. Don's knowledge of rules is limited. After playing for 25 plus years Steve and I indeed should know the rules better. Now to the question: I am about to gradually attack an 37 L AT gun. I am not going to risk any units by charging it, but rather advance into the woods around it from various directions. I pointed out to Don that its Gun shield cannot be pointed in all directions. I think that it has moved so that it has lost its emplacement status. I mentioned in a text to Don this morning that an emplaced Gun receives the advantage of a plus 2 against any Gun hit morale check except a KIA or K result. Now, the question is would a dropped bomb from a plane also fit that criterion? Tim
 

dlazov

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Just out of curiosity who is this other Don? I know it’s not me (Don Lazov).
 

Tim Niesen

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Don D., a bone doctor, who wishes to remain imaginary and anonymous. He actually wants to learn the rules. Steve has no interest. In fact, I think he prefers the dialectical ASL rules that we have played with for decades. I am a perfectionist, and I want to know the rules. Tim
 

Robin Reeve

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the dialectical ASL rules that we have played with for decades.
What is that?
A Hegelian or Marxist concept?
I am a perfectionist, and I want to know the rules
Well, I would recommend that you spelled your rules questions in a much more precise way, as you quite often don't use the appropriate wordings of the rules.
I do reckon that you do want to understand how the game system works.
So keep on asking questions.
 

dlazov

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Don D., a bone doctor, who wishes to remain imaginary and anonymous. He actually wants to learn the rules. Steve has no interest. In fact, I think he prefers the dialectical ASL rules that we have played with for decades. I am a perfectionist, and I want to know the rules. Tim
That is a different opinion or a point of view that is contrary to other, no?
 
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