Portaged leader

buser333

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Is a leader able to be portaged in the APh as in the MPh to grant units the additional MF bonus?
 

Binchois

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Interesting. A17.2 only specifies MPh, but I have always assumed the bonus would also apply in the APh. My gut says it should be allowed, but it might need official clarification!
 

EagleIV

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A squad advancing into woods with a 5PP weapon spends all of it's 2 remaining MF. If it advances with a leader it has 4MF (4 base +2 with leader -2 excess PP) and spends only 2 so it is not CX even if the leader doesn't lend his 1PP.
 

buser333

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A squad advancing into woods with a 5PP weapon spends all of it's 2 remaining MF. If it advances with a leader it has 4MF (4 base +2 with leader -2 excess PP) and spends only 2 so it is not CX even if the leader doesn't lend his 1PP.
This is the situation that happened in our game (substitute building for woods). A Russian squad had a MMG, and a squad without any SW carried the wounded leader.
The question remains if it is allowed during APh. I suspect, as Binchois suggested, that it is allowed, and that is how we played it. I imagine I will be submitting a question to Perry about this.
 
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Paul John

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A squad advancing into woods with a 5PP weapon spends all of it's 2 remaining MF. If it advances with a leader it has 4MF
The question was portaging the leader, himself a 5PP device, so that would mean without any weapon, the squad would go from having 4MF to having 6-2=4 MF.
nd a squad without any SW carried the wounded leader.
AHA! Yes, if another squad does the over-the-shoulder carrying, a second squad could benefit, sure.
I think this is right, but I am wrong so often that I won't be surprised if Perry sez nix.
 

Brian W

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Would a portaged leader become CX if it was advanced into difficult terrain? I wouldn't think so.
 

Binchois

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Would a portaged leader become CX if it was advanced into difficult terrain? I wouldn't think so.
While I tend to agree, it may be worth a question as well. If I imagine that the leader is physically "carried", then only the MMC gets CX in my mind. However, I can also imagine the leader being "helped" along and so perhaps everyone would be CX. I don't know what was intended...

In a separate matter (as I saw this written above), the wounded leader can't add his IPC to another MMC's IPC as he no longer has 1 IPC to give.
 

von Marwitz

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Would a portaged leader become CX if it was advanced into difficult terrain? I wouldn't think so.
Interesting question!

I could see reasoning going either way: If you are wounded and manhandled through difficult terrain that may me much more painful and exhausting than being carried on a stretcher along a road.

For simplicity's sake, I would tend not to make an EXC for carried leaders with regard to becoming CX.

von Marwitz
 

Philippe D.

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Back to the rules... Straight from A17.2:

A wounded man who is not portaging a SW may be carried by any Good Order MMC at a cost of five PP. A wounded leader's two MF bonus for accompaniment throughout the MPh still applies.
There are two sentences here: one is about carrying a wounded SMC, and says nothing about it being restricted to MPh, so doing it in the APh seems OK. The other says that the MF bonus still applies in the MPh, without mentioning the APh, but also without excluding it. And the rule about the leader MF bonus, A4.12, only looks whether the MMC begins and ends its MPh/APh stacked with the leader, so I'd say the leader bonus does apply.

As for whether a portaged wounded SMC would become CX for Advance into Difficult Terrain (based on a 3MF allotment, I suppose), this doesn't seem to be covered by the rules themselves, or by any Q&A that I could find. Worth a Q(&A).
 

Binchois

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A4.12, only looks whether the MMC begins and ends its MPh/APh stacked with the leader, so I'd say the leader bonus does apply.

As for whether a portaged wounded SMC would become CX for Advance into Difficult Terrain (based on a 3MF allotment, I suppose), this doesn't seem to be covered by the rules themselves, or by any Q&A that I could find. Worth a Q(&A).
I'd say the wording of A17.2 casts at least a bit of doubt on the APh bonus. We all seem to agree, but official verification would be nice.

As for the CX problem, the issue is twofold: one, that the 5pp leader leaves the squad with only 2MFs in the APh if the leader doesn't apply, and two, whether or not the portaged leader should become CX if the carrying unit does.
 

Philippe D.

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As for the CX problem, the issue is twofold: one, that the 5pp leader leaves the squad with only 2MFs in the APh if the leader doesn't apply, and two, whether or not the portaged leader should become CX if the carrying unit does.
"if the carrying unit does", or possibly "if the carrying unit expends at least 3MF" (since this is the carried SMC's MF allotment). It might be that the SMC is considered to expend MF in this situation, so in this case spending his whole allotment would be enough to make him CX.
 

Binchois

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"if the carrying unit does", or possibly "if the carrying unit expends at least 3MF" (since this is the carried SMC's MF allotment). It might be that the SMC is considered to expend MF in this situation, so in this case spending his whole allotment would be enough to make him CX.
If THAT we're true, there would be no reason to portage a leader at all during the APh. By your reasoning, the leader would become CX if portaged during the APh for 3MF or more. But he could have done that without the MMC's help.

Indeed, it seems like the only benefit of portaging a leader during the APh is to give the leader the extra MF so as to possibly avoid CX (for an advance of 3 or more MF). Everyone would avoid CX at 3MF if his leader bonus still applies in the APh. And the leader would avoid CX at 4MF (or more) if he doesn't share a CX gained by the carrying unit.

Not a major gap in the RB, but there it is.
 

Eagle4ty

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I'd say the wording of A17.2 casts at least a bit of doubt on the APh bonus. We all seem to agree, but official verification would be nice.

As for the CX problem, the issue is twofold: one, that the 5pp leader leaves the squad with only 2MFs in the APh if the leader doesn't apply, and two, whether or not the portaged leader should become CX if the carrying unit does.
As for the 1st instance A4.2 is enough justification to ensure the stack is granted a 2MF bonus in both the MPh & APh as there is no requirement of the status of the Leader, just that it must be stacked with the other units and move/advance as a stack. In the second instance, since the Ldr is being portaged it is not expending any MF itself but just granting the MMC(s) it is stacked with and additional 2MF bonus (motivation if you will). Also, a wounded Ldr can never expend (in movement/advance) more than 3MF, this includes Advance against Difficult Terrain or a Minimum Move situation.
 

jrv

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Also, a wounded Ldr can never expend (in movement/advance) more than 3MF, this includes Advance against Difficult Terrain or a Minimum Move situation.
I don't see any reason this might be true. Per A17.2 a wounded SMC may not Double Time [A4.5], but neither A17, A4.134 (Minumum Move) nor A4.7 (Advance vs. Difficult Terrain) mention wounded SMC at all. Do you have a rules cite/Q&A?

Also this Q&A states it is possible to use Minimum Move in at least some circumstances:

Q&A said:
G1.5 Must a wounded Japanese leader make a Minimum Move if he lacks the MFs necessary to enter the first Location of the Banzai Charge he is part of?
A. Yes (but he would not be pinned as a result). [An93a; An95w; An96; Mw]
JR
 

von Marwitz

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Also this Q&A states it is possible to use Minimum Move in at least some circumstances:

Q&A said:

G1.5 Must a wounded Japanese leader make a Minimum Move if he lacks the MFs necessary to enter the first Location of the Banzai Charge he is part of?
A. Yes (but he would not be pinned as a result). [An93a; An95w; An96; Mw]


JR
This is interesting. A very similar situation came up in my game last night where I had a 'normal' Japanese unit during a Banzai Charge that would have had to move into Bamboo. Because I did not want the unit to end up pinned, I altered the Banzai Charge not including the unit in question.

Looking at that Q&A it would seem that if a (wounded) leader would not become pinned, this would also not be a case for a 'normal' Japanese squad part of a Banzai Charge? It does make a difference, because in this case, the 'normal' Banzai squad could advance out of the Bamboo into CC afterwards.

von Marwitz
 

Eagle4ty

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I don't see any reason this might be true. Per A17.2 a wounded SMC may not Double Time [A4.5], but neither A17, A4.134 (Minumum Move) nor A4.7 (Advance vs. Difficult Terrain) mention wounded SMC at all. Do you have a rules cite/Q&A?

Also this Q&A states it is possible to use Minimum Move in at least some circumstances:



JR
Guess I have been Trumped here, but it's probably a fake rule.
 
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