Pondering Polder
- Thread starter Hutch
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klasmalmstrom
Forum Guru
No....
PresterJohn
Elder Member
AR2 from the MMP Arnhem pack also has SSR Polder.
Vinnie
See Dummies in the index
Interesting talking to folk who lived in Holland about polders. The consensus was the Decision at Elst rules were completely wrong for them.
Bill Cirillo
Elder Member
Sean Deller and I were discussing just last week the fact that ASLSK has a set of rules for a terrain type that isn’t in ASL.
Given the above discussion, I’d be curious to know what our friends in the Netherlands think would be an appropriate representation in ASL.
Bill
Given the above discussion, I’d be curious to know what our friends in the Netherlands think would be an appropriate representation in ASL.
Bill
Hutch
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zgrose
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Not so sure the issue was with the rules for ditches, but the fact that these ditches were called Polder.
PresterJohn
Elder Member
My guess is that the atypical terrain is actually "flooded polder". This would be where farm land that was reclaimed wetland (maintained by drains and pumps), was in the process of returning to a wetland state due to lack of maintenance.
zgrose
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Just to elaborate on the above with an image to guide the conversation:
And then going off the wikipedia description:
A polder (Dutch pronunciation: [ˈpɔldər] ⓘ) is a low-lying tract of land that forms an artificial hydrological entity, enclosed by embankments known as dikes. The three types of polder are:
Land reclaimed from a body of water, such as a lake or the seabed
Flood plains separated from the sea or river by a dike
Marshes separated from the surrounding water by a dike and subsequently drained; these are also known as koogs, especially in Germany
I sense the issue is that Elst introduces a localized terrain feature, but references a larger-scale concept.
In the same vein, if I call M3 (below) "Forest", maybe it's not technically wrong, but it's not really a great choice.
IMO, Irrigation Ditch, so something along those lines, will make everyone happy(er).
And then going off the wikipedia description:
A polder (Dutch pronunciation: [ˈpɔldər] ⓘ) is a low-lying tract of land that forms an artificial hydrological entity, enclosed by embankments known as dikes. The three types of polder are:
Land reclaimed from a body of water, such as a lake or the seabed
Flood plains separated from the sea or river by a dike
Marshes separated from the surrounding water by a dike and subsequently drained; these are also known as koogs, especially in Germany
I sense the issue is that Elst introduces a localized terrain feature, but references a larger-scale concept.
In the same vein, if I call M3 (below) "Forest", maybe it's not technically wrong, but it's not really a great choice.
IMO, Irrigation Ditch, so something along those lines, will make everyone happy(er).
Tuomo
Keeper of the Funk
Seems like Polder is a larger swath of territory than just one hex; feels like you could take a whole board of generally open farmland, cross it with irrigation ditches that connect to streams (naturally formed or essentially Irrigation Ditches On Steroids), and boom, polder. Happy to be corrected by those who know.
Not sure whether Elevated Roads are necessary. I get the feeling they aren't defining characteristics of Polder per se, but were aggravating factors when they existed. Yes/no?
What I think would work there is to have the "Elevated" part actually be at Level 0 so that units on those roads wouldn't have HA over units at Level 0 on adjacent boards. They'd still be pretty exposed, like the units trying to open the road to Arnhem. But the fields separated by the Elevated Roads would be at Level -1.
Not sure whether Elevated Roads are necessary. I get the feeling they aren't defining characteristics of Polder per se, but were aggravating factors when they existed. Yes/no?
What I think would work there is to have the "Elevated" part actually be at Level 0 so that units on those roads wouldn't have HA over units at Level 0 on adjacent boards. They'd still be pretty exposed, like the units trying to open the road to Arnhem. But the fields separated by the Elevated Roads would be at Level -1.
Speak to Hennie van der Salm he would put you right. When Elst came out I was told by the designer that I had no clue to what they were like even with the fact that I lived and worked in the Netherlands for several years and travelled around there a lot and he had the correct info from his wife who had if I recollect been on a horse riding vacation there and knew more and better . It was suggested then that the Dutch players should be contacted but they never were .
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
This is Dutch polder landscape.
This is how you'd have to imagine it on the ground. Characteristically, the gound water level is only slightly below the surface of the ground.
Large polder areas are artificially drained. Many lay below sea-level. Without draining and dikes, in fact, these areas would be covered by the sea. In fact, polders are a method to win land from the sea, but they cannot exist without protection/blocking them from sea-level.
As these areas need to be constantly drained in order to persist in the first place, there is not really the need for Elevated Roads in the ASL sense. Without constant drainage of the area, it would be entirely below water, so what's the use of Elevated Roads through areas of water?
Roads through polders may be at the level of the meadows or - in the ASL sense - akin to EmRR (Embankment Rail Roads), i.e. somewhat raised above the surrounding terrain but not as high as an Elevated Road.
von Marwitz
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
As such, Dutch polder landscape does not resemble the following artwork:
The areas enclosed by "ditches" here are too small and impractical to be used for cattle or farming.
What comes closest to polder landscape ASL-wise are Pegasus Brigde Irrigation Ditches (Q1).
The drainage ditches of Polders might be just Irrigation Ditches, but they can also be much broader.
As a tanker, I'd feel extremely uncomfortable trying to cross polder terrain - attempting to cross the drainage ditches / channels cries for swamping the vehicles and to have them sink into the ground beyond retrieval. Also the meadows of polder landscape I would typically rate soft ground and reckon it to be very prone to bog any vehicle without low ground pressure.
ASL-wise, Dutch polder landscape might be represented by tweaked Pegasus Bridge Irrigation Ditches which enclose areas of a row or area of contiguous hexes.
Rice Paddies are unfit to represent polders IMHO. The Paddies have Banks where polders have drainage ditches/channels. I.e. the former rise above the "field" area while the latter lie below it.
von Marwitz
The areas enclosed by "ditches" here are too small and impractical to be used for cattle or farming.
What comes closest to polder landscape ASL-wise are Pegasus Brigde Irrigation Ditches (Q1).
The drainage ditches of Polders might be just Irrigation Ditches, but they can also be much broader.
As a tanker, I'd feel extremely uncomfortable trying to cross polder terrain - attempting to cross the drainage ditches / channels cries for swamping the vehicles and to have them sink into the ground beyond retrieval. Also the meadows of polder landscape I would typically rate soft ground and reckon it to be very prone to bog any vehicle without low ground pressure.
ASL-wise, Dutch polder landscape might be represented by tweaked Pegasus Bridge Irrigation Ditches which enclose areas of a row or area of contiguous hexes.
Rice Paddies are unfit to represent polders IMHO. The Paddies have Banks where polders have drainage ditches/channels. I.e. the former rise above the "field" area while the latter lie below it.
von Marwitz
Tuomo
Keeper of the Funk
So the eastern (bottom) part of the Pegasus Bridge map seems like a good example, then. Minus the hedges, perhaps.
Would it be fun? Vehicle movement mainly on the roads, LOS very open... feels kinda... meh.
No offense to those who live there or had to fight through it. In fact, even more respect for the latter. Just feels like a flavor of scenario that I'm having trouble getting excited about. Kinda like DTO
Tom
Would it be fun? Vehicle movement mainly on the roads, LOS very open... feels kinda... meh.
No offense to those who live there or had to fight through it. In fact, even more respect for the latter. Just feels like a flavor of scenario that I'm having trouble getting excited about. Kinda like DTO
Tom
Tom
the depictions that Von Marwitz posted are spot on , nothing like Elst, I recommend you get in touch with Hennie van der Salm to keep you right. He took me over a lot of places and killing fields are exactly what a lot of the Dutch terrain is akin tooSo the eastern (bottom) part of the Pegasus Bridge map seems like a good example, then. Minus the hedges, perhaps.
Would it be fun? Vehicle movement mainly on the roads, LOS very open... feels kinda... meh.
No offense to those who live there or had to fight through it. In fact, even more respect for the latter. Just feels like a flavor of scenario that I'm having trouble getting excited about. Kinda like DTO
Tom
GeorgeBates
Elder Member
When it comes to polder, we should be saying drainage, not irrigation, ditches.
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
That is correct.
I referred to Irrigation Ditches for the sole reason that this is the designation of an existing ASL Terrain (Q1 Pegasus Bridge), that comes closest among existing ASL terrains to polder drainages - yet would need some tweaking to capture the polder characteristics.
Note, that the width of polder drainages can vary, ranging from ditches to channels.
Someone has asked for their depth. Alas, I do not know. A quick casual search in the net has not turned up anything useful. Some Dutch ASLers would likely know, I suppose.
von Marwitz