Playing with toy soldiers--a stigma?

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I first discovered miniatures wargaming at a convention in Grass Valley, California, in May 1972. A teenage friend & I had been playing board wargames and some PBM games for about four years by then, but we'd never heard of miniatures.

What we saw at the convention shocked us. We stood watching grown men playing with toy soldiers, and we couldn't help but keep our distance and giggle in mild derision. The most memorably degrading scene of all was a 1/32-scale wargame: now the grown men were on their hands & knees pushing toy tanks around on the ground, shooting at their opponents' models with rubber-band guns!

For a week afterward, my friend and I persisted in ridiculing the miniatures gamers behind their backs. Then another week passed, and we simultaneously changed our tune. Our telephone conversation went something like this:

"Y'know those miniatures games we saw?"
"Yeah . . ."
"Well, I know it sounds funny but, well . . ."
"Yeah, I think I know what you mean. In a way, they looked pretty cool."
"Yeah. I think I want to get into miniatures."
"Me too. Let's do it!"

Typical of our different personalities, he went right out and bought some miniatures (1/72-scale tanks & infantry), while I started a search for rulebooks and struggled over which period to get into. Soon I knew a lot about miniatures wargaming, while he knew next to nothing. But he had the miniatures and a simple set of home-brewed rules that we actually used once or twice.

He eventually dropped out of wargaming, and we drifted out of touch years ago. Me, I made several false starts into miniatures wargaming but never got far. I still have a box of miniatures (only a few painted ones) and a stack of rulesets to show for my abortive efforts.

But to this day, I still find I have the same mixed feelings about miniatures as I had back in the beginning. Every time I play Battle Cry or consider getting into miniatures, part of me feels silly--like a grown man playing with toy soldiers. At the same time, however, I appreciate the substantial, 3D look and feel of miniatures, because I always felt board wargames were too two-dimensional and cheap-looking (all that paper and cardboard).

So, I wonder if you have to have something of a model-railroader's mentality to enjoy miniatures. Me, I've never been the least bit attracted to model railroads. As a kid I slapped together a plastic model or two, but it was more a way to fight boredom than anything I was really interested in doing. As a younger kid, I did play in the dirt with toy soldiers and toy trucks and tanks and such--and that's still a fond memory, because I had great fun doing that with my neighborhood friends.

It's not the stigma that keeps me from getting into miniatures; it's more the facts that (1) I'm not a do-it-yourselfer and (2) I'm not interested in joining a club or turning friends on to wargaming.

Still, I'm curious about how others feel about miniatures. Have you ever been aware of any "stigma"? Or have you always enjoyed modeling and military history, to the point where miniatures wargaming is a natural hobby for you?
 

Targetboy

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Why play minis? They look good!

The big advantage of miniatures over board games is that minis look good. I never played many war games when I was younger. I played D&D starting in the early 80s, and used miniatures for that. From there it was a small step to Battletech, then Legions of Steel and other skirmish level wargames (though I've always hated the Games Workshop games).

Minis are all about the look and feel. A big table with the figs all laid out just looks good. A metal figure has a solid feel, somehow more substantial than a cardboard chit.

There must be something to it. When I go to a store I find kids playing miniature games. Generally 'clicky' games, but sometimes 40k or some other skirmish game. Impressive minis can get your game off the shelf.
 

SnEaKy_GiT

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Got to agree with Targetboy ....

Miniture wargamming is the way to go ... nothing beats the feel of seeing two finely painted armies fighting it out on gorgeous terrain ...

Now if only they would move and talk like the ones in warcarft :cool:
 

jguritza

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I think the first time I saw miniatures I was totally engrossed in the experience. I had played war games for a long time and then I saw miniatures and everything was taken to the next level.

Many times with board games I found myself going, “What does this type of shading mean? Oh yeah that means I am in high grass!”

I first time I played with a group I was handed some pretty great looking French Dragoons. I was given the simple instruction. “You better protect my flank!” I picked up really quick on the house rules and personally I have not looked back since.
 
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Originally posted by jguritza
Many times with board games I found myself going, “What does this type of shading mean? Oh yeah that means I am in high grass!”
I've had that experience mainly with miniatures. In a board wargame, if I'm in a light-green hex, it means I'm in high grass. In a miniatures game, if the corner of a stand is sort of overlapping a patch of fuzzy green carpet, I wonder whether or not the whole unit is considered in high grass.
 
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Originally posted by SnEaKy_GiT
Miniture wargamming is the way to go ... nothing beats the feel of seeing two finely painted armies fighting it out on gorgeous terrain ...
Yeah, but somebody's gotta paint those armies and make the terrain.

I like the look & feel of miniatures--but not enough to do all that work (or pay the high price for prepainted armies).
 

Gen_Electric

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I wouldn't call it a stigma. It's just most men have no interest in minatures or wargames. (board or pc). I've always enjoyed games, military history; etc. Now, you tell guys at work; I collect toy soldiers or play wargames and they look at you funny. It's more that they don't understand 'your' interest in the genre, than a stigma attached to it. I guess most men feel they must have a 'manly' hobby and not one related to their childhood. I say, that's their problem; not mine. :D
 

jguritza

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Most people never ask what my hobby is. I will say this though, people who have shown interest or a passing fancy I will invite them to a game. Most walk away with an appreciation for the work that goes into the hobby and some want to play again. Most enjoyed the experience but the initial cost for start up and time involved can be so incredible daunting that no one joins.

I always stress find a group and play before you make the plunge. A group can offer guidance and also lessen the burden. Besides you find people who will drink beer and shot the breeze too.

In terms of being a MANLY hobby, its war and things get blown up. That normally suffices for most of the male population. I work in a heavy industrial climate with line workers and I have 300 pound grown men who collect Mickey Mouse and another who collects woven baskets. Maybe it’s the fumes but oh well, a hobby is a hobby!
 

SnEaKy_GiT

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Painting and terrian making is part of the hobby ...

Truthfully it's part of the hobby I enjoy more ... and I have more painted armies for different systems that I have time to game with :crazy: ...
 

jguritza

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Wouldn’t many people agree that part of the hobby is painting and researching the armies? I know I spend a great deal of time making sure what I am painting is historically accurate. In doing so I learn more about the period than I think I could just by reading it. Dare I say it forces an interactive history in a sense.
 

Janos

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I see very little stigma attached to wargaming among educated people. Miniatures will not appeal to some people, but that's OK. There are many people who don't read for pleasure either.

Those who are familiar with them may call them "toy soldiers", but once they are familiar with them and the level of work involved in painting them they change their tune. (If they're still not sure there's a difference, try having them PAY for one -- they'll see the difference then!)

JS
 
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Originally posted by Janos
I see very little stigma attached to wargaming among educated people. Miniatures will not appeal to some people, but that's OK. There are many people who don't read for pleasure either.

Those who are familiar with them may call them "toy soldiers", but . . .
Actually, many people not familiar with them call them toy soldiers. You have to become something of an insider before you learn the terms "miniatures" and "figures." Most everybody, however, is familiar with the plastic "army men" that kids play with; and thanks to Disney's Fantasia and the Nutcracker Suite and the Emerson, Lake, & Palmer song, most everybody is also familiar with the "tin soldiers" of the 19th century.

Years ago, I was reading a copy of "Military History" magazine at work. A coworker leafed through it until he noticed the ads for miniatures--whereupon he shot me a "you oughtta be ashamed" look and handed the magazine back, certain that it was a cheap, adolescent rag.
 

CodeTalker

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Well let's see. I hunt, camp, and am an avid cowboy action shooter. I guess those are manly pursuits. It just so happens I also like military history, modeling, gaming and minatures. I gave up worrying about what people think of me a long time ago.

Besides, my boys are now getting interested in minatures, so now would be a bad time to stop.:D
 

Janos

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Originally posted by Code Talker
Well let's see. I hunt, camp, and am an avid cowboy action shooter. I guess those are manly pursuits. It just so happens I also like military history, modeling, gaming and minatures. I gave up worrying about what people think of me a long time ago.

Besides, my boys are now getting interested in minatures, so now would be a bad time to stop.:D
Amen to all that.

JS
 

jguritza

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Originally posted by Code Talker
Well let's see. I hunt, camp, and am an avid cowboy action shooter. I guess those are manly pursuits. It just so happens I also like military history, modeling, gaming and minatures. I gave up worrying about what people think of me a long time ago.

Besides, my boys are now getting interested in minatures, so now would be a bad time to stop.:D
I personal whole heartedly agree here. If you have a hobby that you enjoy but shy away from it because you are worried about your “image” I think you have some issues to worry about before your hobbies…
 

prclimber

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I gave up worrying about what people think of me a long time ago.
I agree with you there. People see the miniatures and automatically assume they're toy soldiers and the people paying them are all kids in a grown person's body. They also assume that becasue we play with these "toy soldiers" that we must be stupid. The truth's far from that, mostly all wargamers are very smart, and have creative skills to match. People just breezing through my local store (which is actually a comics store, but has a large room for gaming in, albeit mostly fantasy and sci-fi games.) look at us weirdly. One time, as I was just entering the store, I heard a little girl ask her mom this: "Mommy, why are those men playing with little toy soldiers?" her mother responded with: "Because they're big loosers honey,let's go." Eech, we sure a bunch of missunderstood guys huh? As the youngest member of the gaming club (I'm only a mere 15 years old) I don't get it that badly, as they think it's ok for a youngin like me to be playing with "toy soldiers", but the other members of the club are from 18-mid 30's, and they get it pretty bad. Drives me nuts the stigmas about us, but I just roll with the punches as do they, and we just ignore those folk who don't know what they're tlking about.

In contrast to this, veterans seem to appreaciate(sorry for spelling) wargames. Both my grand-fathers were extatic when they heard I was getting into warhammer 40,000. Even though it was in a sci-fi setting, it was a start. I've always been interested in military things, and 40k opened the door to more realistic wargames dealing with real troop types etc. Wargames are not only fun, but a great learning expierience for someone looking to re-create battles, change the out-come of battles, or learn more about what it takes to command troops. Granted wargames can't truly recreate what it's like to command, but with them and PC games, you can get a fairly good idea.
 

jguritza

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I think the common thread as so many people have pointed out is war gamers are extremely intelligent people. PRCLIMBER for example, just by reading his post you gather he is an extremely intelligent person. I think the people that are so quick to judge are the same people who do not take the time to understand what we are doing.
 

CodeTalker

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People just breezing through my local store (which is actually a comics store, but has a large room for gaming in, albeit mostly fantasy and sci-fi games.) look at us weirdly
Of course some of these people are the same ones who dress badly, hit little white balls, then chase them down.:D
 
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