Playing ASK starter kit scenario with Full ASL rules

GVL

Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
281
Reaction score
2
Location
Belgium
Country
llBelgium
We would like to play an ASL starter kit scenario from ASL starter kit 1 with full ASL rules.
Has anyone an idea if these scenarios were ever adapted for full ASL ( eg with Snipers)?
 

Mister T

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
3,978
Reaction score
1,380
Location
Bruxelles
Country
llFrance
No adaptation to my knowledge, why don't you just play a regular scenario if you are afraid of something? Two Rally Points scenario packs were designed to be played with either rule set. Besides you can make up the SAN numbers and play like that. I guess balance would not change so much (it may not be your prime concern anyway).
 
Reactions: GVL

Robin Reeve

Aka the Swiss Moron
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
17,109
Reaction score
2,528
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
The standard SAN values are : attacker 3, defender 4.
Bypass and concealment would change the "balance" somehow.
 

Philippe D.

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
1,602
Reaction score
752
Location
Bordeaux
Country
llFrance
It is likely that the balance will be modified, but playing the same scenario with both sets of rules will help discover how the different rules change the feel of the game.

If you read French, there was at least one scenario published in VaeVictis ("Petite Terre") that was intended as a learning tool (without using SK rules). Minimal version uses only infantry and MGs, intermediate version has a Hero, FT and DC, and the (light) Ordnance/Vehicle adds a Gun, ATR, and single German vehicle. (Not sure how easy the scenario is to find, though)
 

GVL

Member
Joined
Oct 28, 2003
Messages
281
Reaction score
2
Location
Belgium
Country
llBelgium
Are these standard SAN values the same for the 6 scenarios from starter kit 1?
We would like to play S6 Released from the East.
 

Philippe D.

Elder Member
Joined
Jul 1, 2016
Messages
1,602
Reaction score
752
Location
Bordeaux
Country
llFrance
I don't think there really is a standard set of SAN values. Based on current designs, I would have said Attacker 2 or 3, Defender 3. But if you want to get a feel for how much a Sniper can affect the game, it's maybe better to overdo it a little (don't go all the way to 6 though, like Guards Counterattack - it's really too high).
 

Robin Reeve

Aka the Swiss Moron
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
17,109
Reaction score
2,528
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
I spoke of "standard", because those are the values that I seem to have noticed in a very high number of scenarios.
A defender SAN of 3 and an attacker SAN of 2 are quite low and much rarer.
SAN over 5 are too much for most situations.
There is no rule of course and one can contest the values that I suggested.
SAN 4 and 3 work well.
That's all.
 

buser333

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
786
Reaction score
261
Location
central WI
We would like to play an ASL starter kit scenario from ASL starter kit 1 with full ASL rules.
Has anyone an idea if these scenarios were ever adapted for full ASL ( eg with Snipers)?
I have played at least S1 with full ASL rules. I thought it was much-improved. I imagine we played without snipers. A tiny scenario like that can really be thrown off kilter with one sniper activation.
 

buser333

Senior Member
Joined
Jun 24, 2013
Messages
786
Reaction score
261
Location
central WI
Are these standard SAN values the same for the 6 scenarios from starter kit 1?
We would like to play S6 Released from the East.
Try using Scenario Archive (a great resource) to find other scenarios around that timeframe within similar proximity. The closest I found was AP63-The Nutcracker. That one has both sides with SAN of 3. Otherwise Robin's suggestion is reasonable.
 

Ed Donoghue

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
151
Reaction score
119
Location
NC
Country
llUnited States
Try playing S3 SIMPLE EQUATION, set in Aachen, should be easy to find a bunch of ASL scenarios also based there for SAN #s. I think trying S14 - 88s at Zon, with A32 - Zon with the Wind providing SAN #s would also work. The fine suggestion by Philippe D of playing a SK scenario with each rule sets makes for good comparison.
 

Ed Donoghue

Member
Joined
Aug 3, 2019
Messages
151
Reaction score
119
Location
NC
Country
llUnited States
WO23 - SIMPLE SOLUTION, also set in Aachen has both SAN #s @ 3. Also has potential for Fortified Buildings.
 

Nineteen Kilo

Member
Joined
Nov 24, 2005
Messages
701
Reaction score
203
Location
Fair Oaks CA
Country
llUnited States
I don't think there really is a standard set of SAN values. Based on current designs, I would have said Attacker 2 or 3, Defender 3. But if you want to get a feel for how much a Sniper can affect the game, it's maybe better to overdo it a little (don't go all the way to 6 though, like Guards Counterattack - it's really too high).
My small gaming circle uses SAN of Attacker 2 and Defender 3 when playing SK scenarios. Mostly because we want the SAN rules but don't want it to impact the scenario as designed very much. It's a House Rule that works for us, YMMV.
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
4,669
Reaction score
2,265
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Factors you may want to consider are the basic types of fight. By this I mean a city fight or an action in primarily dense terrain (woods/jungle) where the chances for snipers or random mischances abound. Perhaps the action cosists of a particularly well prepared defense where the defender may have several "surprises" awaiting attacking forces. You may want to consider the quality of forces committed to action (Is this their 1st action? Is either side particularly inexperienced? etc.). Also one should consider the size of the forces engaged. A scenario with larger OBs will be less affected by random sniper attacks than a small OB scenario. Finally, what are your personal preferences when playing the game? Some people like to have maximum control over most aspects of their game and abhor the interference of random actions over which they have very little control, others enjoy the randomness of unknown occurrences.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
11,064
Reaction score
4,568
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
Just as 19K says Attacker 2, Defender 3
Concealment is the biggest impact IMO
and depending on it (has/would have) the biggest impact on balance
Besides Concealment probably Bypass Movement, too, as it can speed up movement considerably and avoid some dangerous LOS. The speeding up of movement is more relevant, though, as an overall extra halfturn gained throughout a scenario might well make a difference.

von Marwitz
 
Last edited:

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
4,669
Reaction score
2,265
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Besides Concealment probably Bypass Movement, too, as it can speed up movement considerably and avoid some dangerous LOS. The speeding up of movement is more relevant, though, as an overall extra halfturn gained throughout a scenario might well make a difference.

von Marwitz
I believe you've hit on the most prescient aspect of the differences in ASLSK and ASL besides the use of concealment (now available for ASLSK). The use of BP movement, and especially VBM, significantly changes the complexion of the game. As you've noted it speeds the game up movement wise and leads to more LOS/LOF complexities not to mention concealment loss or retainment possibilities. Were I teaching a staged transition from ASLSK to ASL, it would be the last "core" aspect of the game I would introduce. To be honest I am really glad it was left out of ASLSK and IIRC it was almost left out of SL, a game that Hill wanted to be a hex-based game, only grudgingly included as probably a neat idea at the time. One needs only to re-read some early SL/ASL replays where the use of bypass was sparing to see how much the increased use of this aspect of the game has changed the system as well as scenario development over the years. JMHO
 

Robin Reeve

Aka the Swiss Moron
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
17,109
Reaction score
2,528
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
Bypass was introduced in Crescendo of Doom.
 

labelcd6

Member
Joined
Aug 22, 2019
Messages
74
Reaction score
12
Location
Kentucky, United States
First name
Carl
Country
llUnited States
My friend and I have been playing through the SK scenarios with full ASL rules for a couple years now. We are almost through SK3.

We use full rules but do not add snipers.

The upper floors of buildings do seem to change scenarios significantly, as does concealment. But we don't worry about it (unbalancing the scenario) too much. Tons of fun!

Only modification we have done is not counting prisoners as double CVP in the scenarios that include that VC.

Also, for a while, we were rolling for weather because the rules say to do so when EC are not mentioned in the scenario. After getting some insane weather/EC results which led to a scenario or two engulfed in flames (lol), we realized that weather was not being specified in SK scenarios because it is not in SK! Therefore, we switched to moderate EC and no wind as default.

Enjoy!
 

Robin Reeve

Aka the Swiss Moron
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
17,109
Reaction score
2,528
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
About prisoners, if you declare No Quarter, you are very close to the SK rules. If I were to play SK scenarios using the full ASL rules, I would consider that No Quarter automatically applies.
 
Top