Pinned (or first fired) leader and unmarked MMC CCV

Will Fleming

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In both cases, 5+1-1=5.


....Perry

MMP


On April 16, 2017 at 4:59 AM William Fleming <> wrote:

Perry/MMP,

Thanks for the great support as always. A couple of questions came up in a game recently.


A) What is the final CCV value of an unpinned squad and a pinned leader? 6 or 5?

A11.5 CC vs A VEHICLE: Infantry/Cavalry (only) may attack a vehicle in the CCPh but they do not use the Odds Ratios or the Kill Numbers printed on the CCT as they do when attacking Personnel. Instead, the Basic Kill Number of any vehicle in CC is the Close Combat Value (CCV) of the Personnel attacking it. The CCV of a squad is 5, a Crew is 4, a HS is 3, and a SMC is 2. The CCV is modified by +1 for an Assault Engineer, -1 for an Inexperienced unit, and +1 for a SMC combining with the main attacking unit in the same attack. A CCV subject to any form of halving FP penalty (such as being pinned) is reduced by one for each such penalty. If the CC DR is < the CCV of the attacker, the vehicle is eliminated (and turned into a burning wreck if the CC DR is ≤ half of the CCV). If the CC DR equals the CCV of the attacker the vehicle is immobilized instead. No more than two units may combine into a single CC attack vs a vehicle and one of the units in any combined attack must be a SMC who modifies the CCV of the other unit by +1. A single CC attack cannot affect both a vehicle and Personnel (except for the PRC of a vehicle, which are eliminated if the vehicle is destroyed). However, with multiple attackers in the same Location, one attack can be made vs Personnel (11.611) and subsequent attacks vs a vehicle, perhaps with a better chance of success due to the elimination of Personnel in the earlier attack.



B) What is the final CCV value of an unpinned squad and a first fired leader (say for reaction fire)?

D7.213 The only differences between resolving CC Reaction Fire and normal CC are that: CC Reaction Fire occurs during the MPh when no vehicle CC attacks (of any kind, including "sN"; A11.622) are allowed; no pinned unit—regardless of how it became pinned—may make a CC Reaction Fire attack [EXC: FPF CC; 7.212]; CC Reaction Fire conducted by a unit marked with a First/Final Fire counter (including its SW) has its CCV reduced by one; and ATTACKER Personnel Escort [EXC: PRC] in the Vehicle's Location are not affected by CC Reaction Fire, nor can they (even if PRC) engage the attacking DEFENDER in CC or with Bounding First Fire before the end of that DEFENDER CC action (and even then they can conduct no CC prior to the CCPh except possibly Infantry OVR; A4.15).
 

Major Issues

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Had a similar situation, which I'm not sure I got right. An 8-1 and squad were overrun and both Pinned. The AFV stopped in the hex. For CC, is it a CCV of 5 for the squad, plus 1 for the SMC, minus 1 for the Pin? (Need 5) Or is it -2 for the Pin (need 4), because the 8-1 and squad Pins would be separate modifiers?

Thanks,
 

Robin Reeve

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Ask your question in the rules folder.
The present folder is for answers given by Perry, not rules debates.
 

Vinnie

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T
Had a similar situation, which I'm not sure I got right. An 8-1 and squad were overrun and both Pinned. The AFV stopped in the hex. For CC, is it a CCV of 5 for the squad, plus 1 for the SMC, minus 1 for the Pin? (Need 5) Or is it -2 for the Pin (need 4), because the 8-1 and squad Pins would be separate modifiers?

Thanks,
He pin applies only once.
 

Vinnie

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Rule A11.5 states, "A CCV subject to any form of halving FP penalty (such as being pinned) is reduced by one for each such penalty."

Ed
And pin is only one such penalty. If they were subject to Area Fire as well, that would be another such penalty.
 

jrv

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I think this Q&A supports Vinnie's answer, although the reasoning is not quite the same:

q&a said:
A11.5 If a CCV 5 squad and SMC combine for a Close Combat Reaction Fire and both are marked with a First Fire Counter, is the CCV 4 (reduced by one for each First Fire Counter) or 5 (reduced just by one for all First Fire Counters)?
A. 5 since you are not adding the CCVs together but rather increasing the CCV by one if a SMC is participating. [Letter55]
JR
 

Ed Caswell

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And pin is only one such penalty. If they were subject to Area Fire as well, that would be another such penalty.
I don't necessarily disagree. However, I think it would be clearer if the words "type of" were inserted between "such" and "penalty" in the fifth sentence of Rule A11.5.

Ed
 

Vinnie

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I don't necessarily disagree. However, I think it would be clearer if the words "type of" were inserted between "such" and "penalty" in the fifth sentence of Rule A11.5.

Ed
Given the smc modifies the ccv of the squad and the text of A11.5 talks of each such of halving, I'm pretty sure it is -1 No matter how many units are pinned.
 
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