Pinned and Searching

sfcmikej

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Hey All,

A unit expends a MF to search and is fired upon on the MF and pinned. Does the search occur? I found an old thread (noted below) that JR seems to say it does but the rule cited below says that all units making the attempt can be neither pinned nor using assault movement. I don't think you can spend MF if you are pinned so it seems that maybe the act of being pinned stops the search, however, JR seems to indicate in the link below that it does happen.

Mike


http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/dead-before-or-after-searching.68730/

12.152 SEARCHING: As each Good Order Infantry/Cavalry MMC, or moving stack that contains ≥ one MMC, ends its move it may attempt to reveal concealed enemy units (/Minefields; 12.33) in Accessible hexes (including its own) by expending one additional MF in its present hex and making a Search dr, provided that all units making the attempt are neither Pinned nor using Assault Movement.
 

zgrose

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I believe the cited thread has it correct, FWIW. The unit became Pinned after spending the Search MF, rolling the Search dr, and applying the Search results.
 

jrv

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In general all results from spending MF/MP apply regardless of the results of defensive fire. The one famous counter-case is placing a DC, but it is specifically excepted.

JR
 

sfcmikej

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Thanks JR. That is the way I was thinking too but what are your thoughts on the pinned wording in the citation above? It seems odd to me.

Mike
 

jrv

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Thanks JR. That is the way I was thinking too but what are your thoughts on the pinned wording in the citation above? It seems odd to me.
I believe the reason for this quirky is because of the way the effects Pin is explained. A unit that is Pinned is not prohibited from expending more MF, as you perhaps might expect. Per A7.8 a pinned unit "may not move/advance farther during that MPh." ⃰ Depending on how you want to read it, that might still allow it to spend more MF (and in fact a pinned Passenger may unload from a vehicle, expending MF after it has been pinned [A7.82]). Search is allowed by a unit as it ends its move. If it were not for the restriction on not being Pinned (before declaring the Search, not after) a unit that was Pinned could figure that it was ending its MPh due to Pinning, it might as well Search.

It would be even more odd if a unit that was Pinned on the DF on its Search MF expenditure could *not* complete its search, but one that was broken or even eliminated by DF *could.* As I understand the rules once the the search is announced it is completed, even if the MF expenditure results in DF that pins, breaks or eliminates the searching unit(s).

⃰Note also that a pinned passenger can move farther [A7.82], demonstrating that the rules are not quite as in sync as one might like.

JR
 

zgrose

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Hmm, the pinned passenger isn't moving anymore than an LMG is moving, I would think... Off-topic but had to toss that in there.
 

jrv

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Hmm, the pinned passenger isn't moving anymore than an LMG is moving, I would think... Off-topic but had to toss that in there.
There are a couple of words that are used in shifting ways through the rulebook and without definition. "Move" is one ("attack" is another). Per A4.4 "A SW may not move itself; it must be carried or placed on a vehicle," suggesting that although the SW cannot move itself, it can move. I would say that a LMG can "move" according to the rulebook. But with the casual usage of "obvious" words like "move" or "attack", it would not surprise me if there were another context in which the rules said or suggested a SW may *not* move.

JR
 

Eagle4ty

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I think the confusion is prompted by the last part of the sentence, "...provided that all units making the attempt are neither Pinned nor using Assault Movement." Some may infer that being Pinned in the attempt to search (after expending a Search dr) meets the criteria to deny a search, whereas I believe the intent is: if it were Pinned (or using Assault Movement) prior to "wanting" to make a search attempt (i.e. before the Search dr) denies that unit the ability to conduct a Search attempt. Somewhat confusing, or at least possibly misleading, wording of the rule to be sure.
 
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