Tater
Elder Member
Can units outside the PB (same hex) use small arms vs enemy units inside the PB?
PillBox
- Thread starter Tater
- Start date
Jon
Senior Member
Hi Tater
I would say no
B30.1 says the Pillbox hex is not in the Pillbox CA
So any attack against the Pillbox Location from the Pillbox hex must be against the NCA of the Pillbox
As per B30.113, Small arms fire vs a pillbox is NA through its NCA
Cheers
Jon
Will Fleming
Senior Member
B30.1 A pillbox is a Fortification counter that can be set up only prior to the start of play, and only in Open Ground (including any road/shellholes but not bridges), brush, orchard, grain or woods. A Pillbox counter must be placed with the arrow pointing at a specific hexspine so as to define the CA (C3.2) of the pillbox. Except for its two CA hexsides, the pillbox hex itself is not in the pillbox CA. A pillbox may never change its CA or be placed in the same hex with another pillbox. A pillbox is a separate non-vertical-level Location inside its hex; i.e., units inside a pillbox are in a different Location than units outside the pillbox. [Note that new Pillbox counters are included in GUNG HO; although these bear different artwork, they are functionally equivalent to their original counterparts in all respects].
/queues Jazz in (less than) 18 mins
/queues Jazz in (less than) 18 mins
jwb3
Just this guy, you know?
Tater,
I'm guessing this is for your PBr CG? If so, the answer is less clear.
PBr 18 says (paraphrased) "each Pillbox has 360 degree CA; no NCA, but a 360 degree CA -- thus allowing it to fire everywhere but its own hex."
What Jon wrote above is true for a normal Pillbox, but the way the rules actually say it (paraphrased, and 1st ed version) is, "Any attack not from within the pillbox's CA is against the NCA".
In other words, they tell us what the CA is, then leave it to us to work out that because the CA does not include the pillbox's own hex, any attack from its own hex must be against the NCA.
But because a PBr 360 degree Pillbox has no NCA, it's not clear what is supposed to happen to shooters in its own hex -- the one hex not in its CA!
They probably should have just allowed the PBr Pillbox CA to include its own hex. I sense a "Perry sez" in this one....
John
Last edited:
IYAOYAS
Member
I think reciprocity takes care of this one. B30.2 says LOS can't be traced from inside a pillbox to its own hex. B30.1 includes the hexsides of its own hex within its CA to be in LOS.
PBr18 simply gives a pillbox a 360 degree CA. Which means units in such a pillbox can't soot at units in the same hex, but they can shoot at units entering their hex (any of the six hexsides since they have 360 CA). Don't see the complication there.
PBr18 simply gives a pillbox a 360 degree CA. Which means units in such a pillbox can't soot at units in the same hex, but they can shoot at units entering their hex (any of the six hexsides since they have 360 CA). Don't see the complication there.
jwb3
Just this guy, you know?
But with a normal pillbox, reciprocity does not apply. Ordnance or a FT are quite able to make an attack against the pillbox from its own hex; they simply use the NCA TEM. The reason Small Arms can't fire at the pillbox in its own hex is because the rules on NCA TEM say so, not because they have no LOS.
Of course, we all know that the "reason" for all these rules is that the Small Arms firer needs LOS inside the pillbox (and the guys inside need a reciprocal LOS out of it), where the ordnance or FT only needs to be able to see the pillbox. But that supports allowing the Small Arms to fire into the 360 degree pillbox...
John
Per B 30.2
"Fire from iside a pillbox into its own hex is limited to CC, .... or to PBF vs units currently crossing the CA hexsides of its own hex."
So in most cases no small arms fire between units in the PB Location and units in the PB hex.
No EXC for 360 deg PBr PB is known to me.
Adding to my rule argument an aux reality argument:
Every PB structure has dead angles to its immediate vicinity (The movie scene where the US RAngers stand stealthy besides and beneath the vision slits of Atlantic Wall Bunkers).
Tater
Elder Member
I won't argue with your interpretation, however, the rule language seems to intentionaly go out of it's way to put limits on those inside the PB as opposed to those outside the PB in the same hex.
The only real limit seems to be that the PB hex is never considered to be part of the PB's CA. Maybe that is good enough. That would mean that only attacks that can effect the PB through the NCA matter...which would certainly exclude small arms.
Wow, I read the rules twice and couldn't find it, but knew it was true from years of playing.....thanks.....
WaterRabbit
Member
If you are looking at normal pillboxes, then no they cannot. However, if you are looking at 360 deg. pillboxes, then take a look at R5.3.
IYAOYAS
Member
Well, I'll be...
After reading the pertinent rules again I realized I was confusing LOS and CA, and I misread B30.2
LOS between units inside and outside of the pillbox exists through the EXC in B30.2 ...[EXC: the pillbox Location and the same-level Location outside the pillbox are ADJACENT; 30.6] So there's no question about LOS.
The reason fire other than FT and ordnance is not allowed, as John stated, is because the pillbox's hex is not part of its CA, and such fire has no effect through the NCA.
PBr18 Each pillbox has a 360 degree CA; i.e., it has no NCA and no designated CA (thus allowing its occupants to fire out in any direction - except into its own hex)...
What PBr18 does is remove the NCA, while maintaining the in-hex fire limitations for the pillbox occupants. This limitation is not related to CA or NCA, it's an independent limitation. Note that this limitation is not reciprocal. So units in the pillbox's hex (outside) can fire into these pillboxes (since there's no NCA to nullify small arms fire) AND engage in CC, while the pillbox occupants are limited to throwing DCs into their own hex, and CC.
Hope that helps.
After reading the pertinent rules again I realized I was confusing LOS and CA, and I misread B30.2
LOS between units inside and outside of the pillbox exists through the EXC in B30.2 ...[EXC: the pillbox Location and the same-level Location outside the pillbox are ADJACENT; 30.6] So there's no question about LOS.
The reason fire other than FT and ordnance is not allowed, as John stated, is because the pillbox's hex is not part of its CA, and such fire has no effect through the NCA.
PBr18 Each pillbox has a 360 degree CA; i.e., it has no NCA and no designated CA (thus allowing its occupants to fire out in any direction - except into its own hex)...
What PBr18 does is remove the NCA, while maintaining the in-hex fire limitations for the pillbox occupants. This limitation is not related to CA or NCA, it's an independent limitation. Note that this limitation is not reciprocal. So units in the pillbox's hex (outside) can fire into these pillboxes (since there's no NCA to nullify small arms fire) AND engage in CC, while the pillbox occupants are limited to throwing DCs into their own hex, and CC.
Hope that helps.
oops
Reviewing the posts and the ASLRB, I remove clandestinely my "unambigous No". B30.2 is only a one way prohibition for small arms fire.
As I see it, the original Q is still unanswered.
I understand:
The Pillbox hex and the Pillbox Location have LOS to each other.
They are ADJACENT.
The Pillbox hex is not in the CA of the Pillbox Location.
Units in the Pillbox Location cannot fire small arms at the Pillbox hex.
Reciprocity applies to LOS, but not neccessarily to other facets.
So I ask also:
Can units in the Pillbox hex fire small arms into the Pillbox Location?
It might be helpful to answer it first for B30. Pillboxes and THEN for PBr Pillboxes.
Reviewing the posts and the ASLRB, I remove clandestinely my "unambigous No". B30.2 is only a one way prohibition for small arms fire.
As I see it, the original Q is still unanswered.
I understand:
The Pillbox hex and the Pillbox Location have LOS to each other.
They are ADJACENT.
The Pillbox hex is not in the CA of the Pillbox Location.
Units in the Pillbox Location cannot fire small arms at the Pillbox hex.
Reciprocity applies to LOS, but not neccessarily to other facets.
So I ask also:
Can units in the Pillbox hex fire small arms into the Pillbox Location?
It might be helpful to answer it first for B30. Pillboxes and THEN for PBr Pillboxes.
WaterRabbit
Member
B30.2 A pillbox is not an obstacle or Hindrance to LOS. However, LOS from inside a pillbox may be traced only within its CA [EXC: the pillbox Location and the same-level Location outside the pillbox are ADJACENT; 30.6]. Units in an adjacent, ground-level Location within a pillbox’s CA are treated as being ADJACENT to units in the pillbox (and vice versa) for purposes of Point Blank Fire, FPF, DM, rout, and for DC Placement vs the pillbox. Fire from inside a pillbox into its own hex is limited to CC, or SMOKE grenade placement, or a Thrown DC (30.31), or to vertices of its CA, or to PBF vs units currently crossing the CA hexsides of its own hex. Mortar fire and fire vs an Aerial target are NA from inside a pillbox.
That was answered by B30.2.
That was answered by B30.2.
more from The Book
Per B30.113 2nd sentence Small arms is NA through the NCA of the Pillbox.
Per B30.1 2nd sentence the Pillbox Hex is not in the CA of the Pillbox.
I would extend this last sentence as to state that the Pillbox Hex is in the NCA of the Pillbox.
Combining B30.113 2nd sentence and B30.1 2nd sentence leads to the result that you cannot fire small arms from the Pillbox Hex into the Pillbox Location.
Per B30.113 2nd sentence Small arms is NA through the NCA of the Pillbox.
Per B30.1 2nd sentence the Pillbox Hex is not in the CA of the Pillbox.
I would extend this last sentence as to state that the Pillbox Hex is in the NCA of the Pillbox.
Combining B30.113 2nd sentence and B30.1 2nd sentence leads to the result that you cannot fire small arms from the Pillbox Hex into the Pillbox Location.
turlusiflu
Member
B30.2: "...Fire from inside a pillbox into its own hex is limited to CC...". In what case you can fire in CC?
jrv
Forum Guru
Terms like "fire" or "attacks" aren't defined in the rulebook, and as such are used colloquially. The term "Fire Attacks" is defined (index, A7), but is not used in B30.2. Note also that "firing" is the title of a section in Vehicle Smoke Dispensers (D13.3), and the term "fire" is used throughout those rules. This has led to questions about whether vehicular smoke dispensers are weapons of some sort, with similar results.
JR
Tim Niesen
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Interesting thread. Can a FT from within a pillbox fire at an enemy unit in the hex? It would seem logical. A Demo charge can be thrown out of a pillbox. Is that limited to the same hex or its Adjacent hexes within its covered arch.
jrv
Forum Guru
FTs may not attack the outside of a pillbox from inside. FTs may attack the inside from the outside, but are affected by the NCA TEM.
DCs may be thrown from inside a pillbox to outside. They may not be thrown into adjacent hexes.
JR