pillbox and subsequent first fire

GVL

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Movement Phase British Turn.

A German Squad sits in a pillbox in N3 ( with a CA N4M4). A British squad and a Leader is in the Pillbox location N3. The German Squad has first fired already and has a first fire counter on it. The halfsquad in M3 moves to M4.

The question is : Can the German Squad subsequent first fire on the half squad in M4 or is it forbidden because the British leader and squad are in his hex?

Yes , the squad may fire because the British squad and leader are ADJACENT ( pillbox rules) and the halfsquad in M4 is also ADJACENT.
or
No, the squad mustn't fire because it is not important that the British squad and leader in N3 are ADJACENT to the German Squad in the pillbox. They are closer to the German squad than the halfsquad in M411595
 

Binchois

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I would say that it cannot SFF at the HS. The rules for SFF (A8.3) state:

A8.3 ...Subsequent First Fire cannot be attempted against any target at a range > that to the closest armed, Known enemy unit, nor outside the firer's Normal Range.
The issue isn't adjacent versus ADJACENT, it is simply the range in hexes. 0 hexes away is closer than 1 hex away.
 

jrv

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Movement Phase British Turn.

A German Squad sits in a pillbox in N3 ( with a CA N4M4). A British squad and a Leader is in the Pillbox location N3. The German Squad has first fired already and has a first fire counter on it. The halfsquad in M3 moves to M4.

The question is : Can the German Squad subsequent first fire on the half squad in M4 or is it forbidden because the British leader and squad are in his hex?

Yes , the squad may fire because the British squad and leader are ADJACENT ( pillbox rules) and the halfsquad in M4 is also ADJACENT.
or
No, the squad mustn't fire because it is not important that the British squad and leader in N3 are ADJACENT to the German Squad in the pillbox. They are closer to the German squad than the halfsquad in M4View attachment 11595
Because the German unit in the Pillbox has no LOS to the British units on top of the pillbox, the British units are not Known (to the German unit) enemy units [index] and so do not restrict the SFF attack.

JR
 

Binchois

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Because the German unit in the Pillbox has no LOS to the British units on top of the pillbox, the British units are not Known (to the German unit) enemy units [index] and so do not restrict the SFF attack.

JR
I realize that the units which share the Pillbox's hex cannot fire normally at one another, but where is it stated that they do not have LOS (and are thus unKnown) to one another? I guess, because of C3.2 which defines CA as not including the Pillbox's hex. Is that enough?
 

jrv

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I realize that the units which share the Pillbox's hex cannot fire normally at one another, but where is it stated that they do not have LOS (and are thus unKnown) to one another? I guess, because of C3.2 which defines CA as not including the Pillbox's hex. Is that enough?
It's enough for me. B30.2 adds an EXC that the Locations inside and outside the pillbox are ADJACENT. Since hypothetical units could advance between the two Locations the only other reason that an EXC would be required is because there is no LOS.

JR
 

klasmalmstrom

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I think it might depend on whether the units inside the pillbox has made an attack thus far or not.

A8.3 - specifies "Known" - not "units in LOS" (granted, the latter is usually a requirement for "Known"):
"...Subsequent First Fire cannot be attempted against any target at a range > that to the closest armed, Known enemy unit, nor outside the firer’s Normal Range...."


B30.7 says:
"...Once an attack has been made (or SMOKE has been placed) from within a pillbox, all units therein (even if they entered-subsequently/did-not-fire-originally) are considered Known to all other units (even those outside the pillbox’s CA) within 16 hexes that have/gain a LOS to that pillbox..."
 

jrv

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I think it might depend on whether the units inside the pillbox has made an attack thus far or not.
I think you are reading the question backwards. The German unit IN the pillbox is the one doing the SFF. It doesn't matter if the pillbox is considered Known in that case.

JR
 

GVL

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Thank all for the replies. We played it the right way. I fired and killed the half squad ( but I lost the game ( Semper Paratus)).
 
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