Which should I play -- Panzer Grenadier or Advanced Squad Leader?

[ParaMarine]

PG was the first wargame I played, and once I picked up ASL it became my favorite. PG is good at doing something different than ASL. I think it picks up where Panzerblitz left off, except now there are hundreds of scenarios and a greater emphasis on combined arms. I look at it as one scale up from ASL, with scenarios that wouldn't translate well to the squad level. In ASL, having a scenario where the victory conditions are vague or lopsided would make for a boring game, wheras PG does this often because the system is designed to be less bloody, or to where a marginal victory (under the circumstances) is a possibility.

The only problem I have with PG is that it is a major investment in itself. I really like it that you can aquire and organize official pieces, as opposed to third party pieces that look different. I don't like trying to locate different modules to get a complete OOB. The game-in-a-box concept is good, but extra scenarios require several box games. It's the opposite way with the only thing close to ASL clone I have, which is Fighting Formations.

I will say this about Avalance Press: their website has a ton of really good historical articles...excepting the sometimes overwhelming sanctimony.

 

[ASRomafan]

I will say this about Avalance Press: their website has a ton of really good historical articles...excepting the sometimes overwhelming sanctimony.

thanks! As well as a PDF copy of the rules. I'll be looking those over.

 

[ParaMarine]

Make sure and check out the PanzerGrenadier Headquarters: http://www.pg-hq.com/index.php
It might give you an idea where you want to begin. My recommendations are: Elsenborn Ridge for US vs Germans. Desert War or Afrika corps for early and late North African campaign. Eastern Front has Romanians and the Eastern Front (amazing, right) for the first year. Road to Berlin has the last eight months or so on the Eastern Front and includes Hungarians. I've probably played Road to Berlin more than any of them, since there are a lot of good solitaire scenarios. One thing about PzGren: It isn't designed to be competitive in the same way as ASL is. There are lots of balanced scenarios, but in RtB, the German player is often trying to force a Pyrric victory for the Soviets.

The HQ website has a rulebook with clarifications. They're soon to replace the rulebook with a new edition. It will come with a game on Pusan and Burning Tigers, which is about the north flank at Kursk.

On playing the game: you will spend a lot more time maneuvering than in ASL. Also at the platoon level, you won't be assaulting until you have softened up the target pretty well, and you aren't going to see a lot of death and destruction from good shots as much as you will Panzer Leader. You'll notice that the fire tables are a lot different from ASL; you aren't hoping to roll mid to low, but on either side of the bell curve instead. (no magic BBs here - you need to attack by fire and suppress before you can close the distance) OBA is a big part of the game, not really a niche. Artillery is, rightfully, the king of battle. If on the defense: find some good ground and dig in!

 

[ASRomafan]

Thanks for the link! I am definitely not looking to play and learn a new game system. I am as married to ASL as a hobby as much as I am for life with my wife lol. I am looking for design inspiration and potential ideas in how to tackle a few things that ASL does not represent well, or at all, in HASL/CG design and those shortcomings would be magnified if we end up going where I want to take us which is macro HASL design. We have some ideas and some being tested out in the latest CG, but there are always people smarter and more creative so I was curious to see if PzGr might have somethings that can stimulate some ideas or even translated to what we are working on.

 

[ParaMarine]

Ah I see. One of the good things about CGs is that victory doesn't normally come suddenly and that it is often based more on the forces and not terrain. Incorporating command and maneuver into a larger scale CG would definitely be worthwhile. Once people understand that not every Observation Post is climactic and how quickly they deploy, they will probably catch on. I wish you good luck.

 

[ASRomafan]

Ah I see. One of the good things about CGs is that victory doesn't normally come suddenly and that it is often based more on the forces and not terrain. Incorporating command and maneuver into a larger scale CG would definitely be worthwhile. Once people understand that not every Observation Post is climactic and how quickly they deploy, they will probably catch on. I wish you good luck.

Thanks! And I (we) will need it. It is a big undertaking and why I have sort of quietly been enlisting the help of some very smart and motivated people to not just improve and expand upon the traditional styles of CG's we have played for years. I want this to be noted for not simply being the largest HASL done, any one with enough time and motivation can make a big one, but perhaps somthing that brings innovativation to the rather stagnent traditional CG thinking, and of course still be interesting and fun to play.

That is the goal at least. Aim high and see where it takes us.

 

[AlexiusStephens]

Inserting a tangential thought......wouldn't it be a neat presentation at some wargaming convention to have multiple games of sequentially lesser scale represent segments of the same battle? You could begin with AH Third Reich with a single German and Soviet Army Group counters facing off somewhere in the Ukraine, then go to a map of the Europa series depicting the same area, but this time show two divisional counters facing off......then possibly something from Case Blue OCS....and then so on continually magnifying the scope until you demonstrated a firefight in some Ukrainian village in the Panzer Grenadier format and lastly among village buildings in the ASL scale. I think that would be impressive and visually attractive as a demonstration of wargaming.

Stephen

 

[ParaMarine]

I could see that for PG in one sense: Urban Assaults. I'd say that five turns per assault, with the terrain randomly selected but appropriate to the battle in question. Forces represented would be T/O to that particular assaulting unit for the time, with troop quality ELR depending on PzG's morale and initiative level for the scenario.

Maybe I'll try it some day!