PF Madness from ASLML

[PRogman]

Hi ASL brethrens,

This is a Q from Austria, also known as ASL-Sleazeland, the country were
crews flee their Kingtigers to claim control of some VC toilets!

The issue came from a Newbie and was introduced to me by my gaming-buddy Kurt
(who is also on the list). Hi Kurt!

OK here is it:

A german squad has FF'ed during the enemy MPh--using either 2 PF or 1 PF and
inherent FP. It is now marked First Fired. DFPh comes up and our Newbie
claims that the squad can do an addditional PF shot vs. an adjacent target.

Why? Because A 8.4 says "..units/weapons that are may also fire again, but
as Area fire...blah, blah". C13.31 (first sentence) says: "All good order (or
Berserk) German infantry after September 1943 which can still fire during
their current phase can possibly fire a PF.

OK, Kurt and I searched through the rulebook, I had some offline talks with
ASL grognards, they all thought (as we did), that this shouldn't be allowed,
we failed to find the rules disallowing that. So the Q now goes list.

Let me help a bit: C 2.24 saves the day for other weapons but does nothing
for PFs (because the PF rules explicitly say you can fire one if "the unit is
can still fire" and that is clearly the case as per A8.4).

It is no help to try to circumvent this over usages per phase, as A.15
specifically says that "...units may fire in both without violating the
general rule that no unit can fire in more than one phase per turn ".

So what? As it stands we are proud to have a very promising newbie that has
gone through Viennise ASL School, has incorporated COWTRA and, with
disregards of reality arguments just finds out that the above squad _can_
fire another PF (with case K for Area fire)??

Any takers?

 

[Hubbs5]

I believe your problem can be solved easily. Any squad firing 2 weapons (PF's in this case) or 1 weapon and it's inherent FP should be marked with a Final Fire counter, even in the movement phase, not a First Fire counter.

Check out the top of page C22 in the ASL Rulebook v2. Rule # is C13.31 and it say a squad can only fire a second PF if it has not used it's inherent FP and no where do I see that a squad can fire 3 PF in any phase for any reason. Hope this helps.

 

[Brian W]

I believe your problem can be solved easily. Any squad firing 2 weapons (PF's in this case) or 1 weapon and it's inherent FP should be marked with a Final Fire counter, even in the movement phase, not a First Fire counter.

This is not the case in the MPh. A unit that fires is marked with a First Fire counter (unless it cowers). I can then fire during the MPh as Subsequent First Fire (SFF) and is then marked with a Final Fire counter, A8.1.

However, A7.351 says that a squad can never fire more than 2 SW during a fire phase, so a squad can never fire more than 2 PF. Strangely there is no such prohibition for half squads.

Check out the top of page C22 in the ASL Rulebook v2. Rule # is C13.31 and it say a squad can only fire a second PF if it has not used it's inherent FP and no where do I see that a squad can fire 3 PF in any phase for any reason. Hope this helps.

Yes, I would think that that could provide the needed coverage for squads; however, there isn't anything that prevents a hs from firing one in Final Fire.

Also note that there is a similar problem (I think) for Flamethrowers marked First Fire. I have never seen someone use a Flamethrower already marked first fire during Final Fire, but I don't see any rule that contradicts A8.4 for FT's. Maybe I have just never seen an oppertunity for this to happen and that is how everyone plays it. Makes FT's more powerful than I had thought.

 

[Anonymous]

Just want to double-check. My understanding now is that ONLY sw capable of rate-of-fire or sustained fire (basically MGs and ordnance) can fire multiple times in DfPh/MPh.

Which would rule out multiple usage of things like FT or PF.

Is this correct???

 

[SamB]

I believe what you write is the essense of Perry's reply on this topic on the ASL Mailing List.

In other words, no, you can't fire three PF's.

 

[PRogman]

PF Madness

It is still fully possible to fire a PF with a Squad with a SW that is both marked First Fired in DFPH. Perry's post on the ASLML let us know that is not the intention of the rule and so agrees the majority of the ASL Community (as much of it that I know of anyway).
The problem is that the rule is not changed so no matter what Perry says it is a viable option.

Peter

 

[apbills]

Re: PF Madness

It is still fully possible to fire a PF with a Squad with a SW that is both marked First Fired in DFPH. Perry's post on the ASLML let us know that is not the intention of the rule and so agrees the majority of the ASL Community (as much of it that I know of anyway).
The problem is that the rule is not changed so no matter what Perry says it is a viable option.

Peter

Peter.....
That is not what Perry said. It is not a viable option. If you have fired a SW and the Inherent FP, thus marking both with 1F counters, you can not fire a PF - anytime after that.

His words:
Rule:A7.351, C13.31

Question:If a squad has fired its inherent FP and *any* SW (including a PF
Check) during Defensive First Fire, may it fire any SW (including a PF
Check) during Final Fire?


It could fire the _same_ SW if that weapon can use Intensive Fire or
Sustained Fire, but no other.

....Perry
MMP


The rule does not need to be changed. His words:

Sorry I haven't answered any questions on this topic yet, but I figured it
wasn't too important since it has mostly already been answered in previous
Q&A. Anyway, I have been too busy rolling on the floor laughing.

....Perry "Laughing _with_ you, not _at_ you"

Alan