PBEM: Eastern Front 1941-1945 or EA 2012?

Secadegas

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Those German artillery units specialy if Build Siegfriedline is not chosen come really slowly late in the game when Barbarossa Bonus time is long over.
So the Soviet arty units. They appear long after Barbarossa. Almost half of them more than 1 year later!
And can assure you that while playing Axis my Soviet opponents don't even get all their arty units.

I seen Germans even got stuck in France with latest patch. In our game i lost so much in France i thought for weeks if i even should invade Russia.
Russia got enuff time to plan and prep defences.
With Sealclubber brilliant idea of taking the Allied SP from Paris (and avoinding the "turtle defense tactic") the French campaign will be more fluid and much more realistic. Axis will be in much better shape when invading USSR. As it was before.

Without early arty units Germans gonne get stuck fast in the East in a normal game.
Come on, Vince. I had the oportunity to show you that's not like that (even under 3.4). An aggressive Axis player using all his many assets can give the Allies a hell lot of trouble.
 

sealclubber

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Sorry to disagree but problem isn't exactly with ignore losses. IL works as always did. Of course, under IL units get stubborn as intented.
3.4 version left IL untouched.

On 3.4 version were made RFC adjustments (especially with fortified units / fortified terrain). Check Bob Cross (Curtis Lemay) tests and see for yourself.
The adjustments were overrated. These adjustments had (have) a sound rationale behind them as many times in the past people claimed it was "too easy" to play the attacker in TOAW. However the changes were disproportionated with the results we all know now. When more than a year ago a few of us pointed this problem out most usual posters didn't follow or even recognized the problem. However today is common knowledge in our community these 3.4 RFC adjustments being TOAW biggest issue.

As you can imagine adding units on IL to these overrated adjustments obviously worsens the problem.
Creating a house rule avoiding fortified units to be on IL it will ease things up but how can you create a house rule both players can't verify? You can never be sure on which losses setting your opponent has his units.
On a test with a trustworthy opponent it will work but isn't a simple solution for common playing.
Yes, I'm aware. The problem is that retreat cancellation percentages (brought on by both terrain and deployment status) is way overdone when you remove the _majority_ of the retreat events from ever occurring, which is what happens with IL. If the # of retreat events was doubled, the 84% retreat cancellation on Fortified Line/Fortified Deployment would not feel so off or bad. Piling on the non-linear, stacking defensive bonuses for terrain + deployment and things get bloody.

The problem can be addressed in multiple ways - one way is ensuring that Ignore Losses is not "literal", as opposed to how its worked in past versions.
 

sealclubber

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You know, I actually think reducing entrenchment rates to something around 20% would do it. I haven't gotten to Russia yet in 3.4, but it's such a large front that with 20% entrenchment rates, the Russians will have a hard time after their initial defensive line is cracked. It will be bloody for the Germans to break that prepared line, but why shouldn't it be? After that, the Russians will only be able to prepare another line by giving up a lot of territory... they will be forced to fight forward at least somewhat or they will get rolled.

That, combined with more nerfing of France would probably be enough. And all this takes is modifying one scenario variable and adding a few events on France. The problem with France is the French Army is large and France geographically is small. So you can create, as Mark referred to it, a "carpet" of French units. What we need are other major negatives for the French . What if France loses Marseilles they also surrender. Combined with 20% entrenchment rates, the French player could not risk railing down to Italy to entrench if the Axis activates them early... they would have to leave a reasonable force down there. Furthermore, make the loss of Abbeville or Calais cause a negative shock event or something. We know the British were adamant that the coast be held and if the French don't adequately defend that area, the Germans can just push into Calais and cause a major negative shock event. I actually think negative shock is the best idea, because it will cause reorg, giving the Germans a chance to go mobile (and maybe take Orleans).

The idea basically being that we force France to defend France, rather than just Paris. But you don't want anything that's too strong on its own. I think one thing is clear - Case Yellow shock is no longer giving the Germans the edge that it was intended to give them during the campaign.

Also, I can't take credit for Orleans supply point - that was Shadow that suggested that to me in our game.
 

Telumar

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It's more than normal two equally informed persons getting to different conclusions...

British or Americans have no Arty units. Later in the war both have a strong strategic air command.
Apart from balance issues and unit scale.. i can't believe that. That army.. that army that not only shelled once, but better twice before they even considered taking a short look out of their foxholes.. that army, that had material, supplies, vehicles and ammunition in abundance, that army that had the finest and best artillery branche of the entire war.. doesn't even get one of these units?
 

Secadegas

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Apart from balance issues and unit scale.. i can't believe that. That army.. that army that not only shelled once, but better twice before they even considered taking a short look out of their foxholes.. that army, that had material, supplies, vehicles and ammunition in abundance, that army that had the finest and best artillery branche of the entire war.. doesn't even get one of these units?
I agree 100% with you in historical terms and if this was a "normal" scenario. BUT on EA you need a great degree of abstration as you're dealing with a multi-front 5 years/+ WWII scenario.

We already had our discussion about EA's equipment, remember? It's very much the same issues.
 

Telumar

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I agree 100% with you in historical terms and if this was a "normal" scenario. BUT on EA you need a great degree of abstration as you're dealing with a multi-front 5 years/+ WWII scenario.

We already had our discussion about EA's equipment, remember? It's very much the same issues.
Yes i know. It's just the problem i personally have with the scenario. Although i have really enjoyed my one and only game of EA with Heldenkaiser. But i yet didn't know that the Western Allies don't have any Arty units.
 
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