Partisans - particularly Yugo

Neepster

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Ok, two things about the partisans in Yugoslavia (although this could apply to Greece as well).

1) I think the Chetniks are modeled far too strongly. Each Chetnik unit is as strong or stronger than many other countries infantry corps (and some tank corps). It should not require 10 German and Italian corps in Yugoslavia to keep the place nailed down.

2) They also should not reconstitute unless they are FAR less powerful than they currently are.

In general, in my opinion, partisan units should have limited combat power (say no more than 2-2 or so) and their primary purpose should be in harrassment (cutting supply lines, taking the odd ungarrisoned city, occaisionally banding together to attack an invader unit), they should NOT be a handful for 2nd SS Pzr Corps to take head on.

Thoughts?
 

Mantis

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I have no problems whatsoever eliminating these little buggers the turn they arrive. The Allied player usually doesn't even ever get to move them - he just sees them die in the replay. The Bulgarians are not allowed in Western Europe, and not into Russia either. Between them, and the forces you get once you take Yugo out, I don't require anything else except a German HQ or two. I break down a few of the units, maybe have a broken down support unit from the Germans, and this provides enough to get instant surrounds when the partisans appear.

Game over.
 

Neepster

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You manage to do this with the Chetniks? I am not talking the green colored partisans, I'm talking the 5-8 red colored partisans. The multiple stacks of 5-8 red partisans.... Way too powerful.
 

Siberian HEAT

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Some players (such as myself) work out agreements with their opponents to put all of their partisans into a "holding area" and then surround that area with a comparable force of Axis units to hold them in. This has the dual advantage of helping the Allied player from losing 1000's of rifle squads for nothing and it helps the Axis player because he doesn't have to waste his time hunting down those pesky and somewhat useless units. I prefer to just play through without worrying about Yugoslavia, Greece and so forth. This scenario is too large to properly model partisans anyway (coupled with the game engine always putting the partisans in the same hexes).
 

Bdr.Mallette

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Neepster said:
You manage to do this with the Chetniks? I am not talking the green colored partisans, I'm talking the 5-8 red colored partisans. The multiple stacks of 5-8 red partisans.... Way too powerful.

When did they appear?
 

Raver

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They appear later in the game. IIRC around the time of Barbarossa in most games I've played.
 

Bdr.Mallette

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under the house rules, they are not allowed to leave their country of origin?
isn't that so for guerillas and Irregulars?
 

Neepster

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They show up when Barbarossa starts. They are obnoxious even if they don't leave Yugoslavia since they can literally take it all back.

I like the house rules suggested above (where the Chetniks are surrounded by an equal amount or value of Axis units), but they would be unnecessary if the units were modeled more accurately. Every one of these units has more personnel and material than were ever in the entire Chetnik "army" in the war (from what I can tell).

Speaking of that, I've noticed some similar things regarding some of the units, most particularly the rail gun units. They seem to have literally hundreds of gigantic rail guns, when in reality, no one had that many... I can understand if this is necessary for playability, but it does mess with the simulation aspect...
 

Mark Stevens

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In 3.4 the Chetniks appear immediately after the surrender of Yugoslavia and represent Milhailovic's pro-Royalist partisans, largely formed from the regular army. In my experience they are very easily defeated: a few reconstitute, as there was a continuing insurgency throughout the early part of the war. To represent the switch in Allied support from Mihailovic to Tito they are withdrawn 50 turns, with a 50 turn variable, after the surrender.

Far more effective are the Tito units, representing the Communist Partisans. These start as '2 - 4' or '3 - 4's and there are six: one following the Russo-German War, one following Italian surrender and four following the switch mentioned above. They do get stronger if left to their own devices.

According to John Keegan's 'World War II' there were twenty Italian and six German divisions in Yugoslavia prior to the Italian surrender. Following this the Italians disintegrated and a further seven German and four Bulgarian divisons were deployed there. In 1943 the Germans launched an offensive against Tito's Partisans which involved around 100,000 men, by which time the latter could field in excess of 120,000. This number increased as the war went on and they became more effective due to experience and increased Allied supplies - there may have been in excess of 200,000 by the end of the war. The number of Axis troops is for regulars only, and excludes the Croat and other smaller militias, and the switch of some Chetniks to Axis auxiliary troops, all of which are also modelled in the scenario.

There are two Greek Partisans, one Royalist and one Communist, starting at '3 - 4' each, the former following the Greek surrender, the second the Russo-German war.

Arguably the four Tito units could be deployed over a longer period, but I don't think the overall concept is flawed. If players don't want to spend all their time chasing each other round the country (remember that they can't leave Yugoslavia) then SH's suggestion of a mutual freeze is reasonable enough.

The thing is that there's so much that we can't attempt to model properly - e.g. the entire strategic war - that it seems a pity not to at least try to incorporate guerillas since the engine allows for them.

But if you find yourself, as the Axis player, cursing the fact that by mid-scenario you've had to deploy all of the Croats, the Axis Chetniks, two Bulgarian and six German corps in Yugoslavia to keep Tito's Partisans off of the main roads and railway lines, I reckon that's about right.

Incidentally, an SS Panzer Corps will walk over a Partisan unit in the open: possibly not if the thing's entrenched in rocky terrain, but I reckon that's not too far from reality either.

Welcome any more comments, particularly from anyone who's read a lot about the partisan war in the Balkans.
 

Neepster

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Sorry I guess I mixed up Tito and the Chetniks... However, they are still a pain! Do the Tito units reconstitute? It is taking too many axis units to keep them from being a pain... of course part of that is me not wanting to use anything other than Italians on them since the Germans are all busy in Russia....
 

Mark Stevens

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All six reconstitute on High Priority.

I need to make some minor adjustments to the scenario, so perhaps weaken the Tito Partisans a bit, spread out their order of appearance, and lessen their priority?

But they should be a PITA for the Axis player: they were.
 

Neepster

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Well, I think they should have their priority of reconstitution lowered significantly at least. I'd prefer reducing their combat power as well. As long as they continue to reconstitute, the axis player will have no choice but to put significant units there, but their combat power at the moment is too high I think.

Thanks.
 

Bdr.Mallette

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Why not just start killing more villagers and families till the partisans disband and accept their fate?

:smoke:
 

shadow

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:devil: Now that would be interesting to model, the effects of mass civilian slaughter on the moral of troops :devil:
 
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