Panzergruppe Guderian in Smolensk'41

[Pirimeister]

I was not sure where to post this one, but since it deals with aPc wargame...

Thanks to a combination of factors(specialy some posts in the boardgames section) I begining to seriously consider buying the boardgame Panzergruppe Guderian. But when as I was looking for info on it, I found an interview with Jonh Tiller where he was talking about why he went with the Smolensk setting for his first PzC game. He says that he wanted to capture the feel from SPI's PGG.

Since some of you guys here in the forum seem to have played that game and are familiar with the PzC game system, particularly Smolensk'41, can you tell me how close does this game is from that PGG "feel"? Are both comparable? Is there enough diference between them to justify buying the boardgame?

And, most importantly, would it apropriate for a mathematicaly challenged, green-as-they-come novice in boardgaming?

Cheers!

 

[trauth116]

While can't specifically address how Smolensk 41 relates to the boardgame Panzergruppe Guderain (mainly because I never owned or played PGG).

Anyway, iirc Kharkov by SPI was the same system -and I do have Kharkov. S 41 is at a much larger scale than PGG (judging my the Kharkov game).

I did some calculating - and if S 41 were the scale of a boardgame - the map would be close to 5 meters wide and maybe 3 meters tall. (Am taking a rough guess as I am not that up on the metric system conversions of feet to meters).

The basic German infantry unit in S 41 represents about 850 men (don't have an oob handy - but I could tell you the exact size if I did). I believe that PGG probably uses the regiment as the main type of unit vs -I think- a battalion in S41).

In effect what you get with S 41 would be the equivalent of a monster game.

I haven't had much time to play this one over the past week - I'll try to get some more detailed screen shots.

 

[trauth116]

I neglected to mention too, that in S 41 (Smolensk 41) - the scale per turn represents a much smaller time increment - 2 hours for dayliight/dawn/dusk turns and 4 hours at night - plus 1 hex in the computer game = 1km.

 

[Pirimeister]

Thanks for the info, trauth116. That's something I'll consider. Anyone has something else to add?

 

[trauth116]

http://grognard.com/zines/sr/spi_no1.pdf

A pretty decent looking article on the boardgame - the boardgame would have probably a hundred counters (standard for games that appeared in the old Strategy and Tactics magazines in the 1970's.

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The math thing has really been overblown - if you can compare say 28 attack points (normally called attack factors) to 5 defense points - and understand that almost all games have you round the odds down...

28/5 = 5:1 -then find that on a chart - and roll a die (possibly adding or subtracting a number or so from the die roll due to (normally) terrain effects - then you shouldn't have any problem.


I would say though that PGG being an operational level boardgame - that uses a much larger scale with one game unit representing something that S 41 would take about 15 pieces. The time scale has got to be much greater time per turn in PGG, as well as space -- np idea what the scale is exactly in PGG - but it has to be at least 5 or more km per hex - I'd say probably 10 km per hex - where S41 is 1 km per hex...

I guess thebottom line is the games are going to feel very different.

(Ok the real reason is I found what might be a useful article - while looking for something else --

and I got wordy - sorry )

 

[dannybou]

I have never played nor seen PGG but am an avid player of the HPS Panzer Campaign series and am presently in a 170 turn Smolensk scenario against the AI. I have played boardgames when I was younger and when I found PC gaming I never looked back. I like the computer doing all the calculations, odds, movements etc.. for me. Gives me more time to think strategy. As for Smolensk, the map is huge and permits for large movements of divisions in a fairly reasonable time. The strategy involved is immense and you can immerse yourself into these games completely. Plus you can't make mistakes as the computer won't let you.

 

[Pirimeister]

trauth:

116Fund that article you sugested and been reading it trying to solve my conundrum. I think I would be ok with all the calculations involved, specialy if they tend to be like the example you gave.

But I think i'll have to give it some extra tought, being as I am at that stage that dannybou mentions in his post. Being able to focus on the strategy aplied to the game is a big incentive to play PC games and stick by them.

But that PGG revival review has got me even more curious... Right now, to ease this "shooping tension", I've engaged in a simultaneous game of PzC Smolensk '41 and TOAW's own Smolensk scenario, playing both games on a "day by day" basis: given the diferent time scales, it turns out in something more or less like 1 day=1 turn(10km p/hex) for TOAW for 1 day=12 turns (1km p/hex).
Summer holidays - got to love them!

Thanks again for your input! I really apreciate you guys taking the time to help me!

Cheerios!

 

[trauth116]

Primestar - don't get me wrong - I am not trying to sell you on buying the board game -- but rather am only interested that you make an informed choice for what you want out of gaming.

As for me - I'd stick with S '41. :thumb: Either way -- as long as you have fun and feel you got your money's worth is all that matters.

 

[Pirimeister]

No problem with that trauth116. Belive me , I really apreciate your point of view. To me this exchage of experience is the best way to go when it comes to make a decision to have my "disposable income" disposed of.

And to tell you the truh, I'm having so much fun playing S '41 that I think I'll leave PGG for some other time.

Cheers!

 

[dannybou]

Originally posted by Pirimeister
No problem with that trauth116. Belive me , I really apreciate your point of view. To me this exchage of experience is the best way to go when it comes to make a decision to have my "disposable income" disposed of.

And to tell you the truh, I'm having so much fun playing S '41 that I think I'll leave PGG for some other time.

Cheers!

If your into PBEM, I'd play you a game. Let me know.

 

[Treaver]

Panzer Gruppe Guderian

I own and have played PGG several times over the last ten years.

What questions do you have about it?

 

[Pirimeister]

Well, basicly, I wanted to know if it "plays better" than the PC offerings on the subject, namely Panzer Campaigns Smolensk '41 and TOAW's scenario on that operation.

Does that game system offer something different that these alternatives, woth the money spent in it? Or are these PC products more than capable of offering the same quality of game experience? And for a begginer. is it a viable option to start board-gaming?

I have to say that as the week went along I've been having great fun replaying these two game systems, so I think I have more than enough Smolensk to have fun with. But an exytra opinion, specialy from a veteran PGG is most welcome.

 

[Treaver]

Well I would certainly say that it's a much better game/scenario to play than TOAW version of the same battle. However I'm no fan of TOAW or any of it's later incarnates so you can take that with a grain of salt.

I've not played the Panzer Campaigns version so I cannot compare for you from that perspective.

However if you're looking to get in to board gaming, Panzer Gruppe Guderian is an excellent game to start with. It's very well balanced for either side and the system is fairly easy to learn.

It's essentially a four to six hour game in total, the unit sizes are regiments for German armor and mech , divisions for German infantry, and division for all soviet units (armor and infantry)

The map is quite nice looking and their are not major holes in the rules. In fact, SPI put out another game using the same rules called Cobra based on the breakout from Normandy which is also quite fun.

Overall I'd give the complexity a 6 out of 10 and I'd rate the game as an 8 out of 10.

The upside of board wargaming is that you get a better feel for the battle/war than you do from a computer version. Plus there are WAY more games put out as board/wargames than there are for the CPU. Plus I tend to get alot more out of boardgaming and playing with other people than I do sitting in my computer room staring at a screen for hours on end.

The downside of course is that the games dont solo very well and wargaming being a niche hobby at best, it can be difficult at times to find opponents.

Let me know if you have any other questions regarding PGG or just Wargaming via cardboard in general.

Treaver