PaK 98/37

[Juan SantaX]

Why the pak97/38 is a normal size target, and the pak 38 a small one? Both used the same carriage (same size).

Pak 40 is small target also, and it is bigger than pak 97/38

Pak 97/38 combat weight is 1190 kg, PaK 38 is 1000 kg, and PaK 40 is 1425 kg...

The man handling numbers are 8, 10 and 8.

something looks wrong...

 

[von Marwitz]

Sad that Paul Weir has passed because this is exactly the type of question this fine man could have (and very likely would have) elaborated on.

As to the PaK 97/38 and PaK 38: Maybe the difference in weight and thus the PaK38 being easier to move, i.e. easier to get out of harms way switching positions and thus being more difficult to hit is supposed to be abstractly reflected by making it a small target? Only guesswork.

von Marwitz

 

[Actionjick]

Sad that Paul Weir has passed because this is exactly the type of question this fine man could have (and very likely would have) elaborated on.

As to the PaK 97/38 and PaK 38: Maybe the difference in weight and thus the PaK38 being easier to move, i.e. easier to get out of harms way switching positions and thus being more difficult to hit is supposed to be abstractly reflected by making it a small target? Only guesswork.

von Marwitz

Well put Sir. Every time something like this is asked it reinforces what an asset Paul was to the community. Always ready to share his knowledge.

As a community we try to do our best in these cases but Paul left behind some big boots to fill.

 

[footsteps]

I believe that both the PaK 38 & 40 are purpose-built ATGs, while the 97/38 is a traditional field howitzer mounted on an ATG carriage. The howitzer superstructure simply sits much higher on the carriage than the lower slung ATGs.

 

[Juan SantaX]

I believe that both the PaK 38 & 40 are purpose-built ATGs, while the 97/38 is a traditional field howitzer mounted on an ATG carriage. The howitzer superstructure simply sits much higher on the carriage than the lower slung ATGs.

Not at all. It is a Pak 38 with a gun barrel of a howitzer. Take a look at some photos: its just a pak 38 with a big gun barrel (thats why its called 97 / 38 )

 

[Alan Hume]

Sad that Paul Weir has passed because this is exactly the type of question this fine man could have (and very likely would have) elaborated on.

As to the PaK 97/38 and PaK 38: Maybe the difference in weight and thus the PaK38 being easier to move, i.e. easier to get out of harms way switching positions and thus being more difficult to hit is supposed to be abstractly reflected by making it a small target? Only guesswork.

von Marwitz

Yes, Paul's knowledge and his kind nature are much missed

 

[bprobst]

It could have something to do with the size value of the counter probably representing more than just the physical height of the individual weapon. A Gun in ASL is not just a single object; you've got lots of ammo etc. stacked up around it as well -- generally invisible to us playing the game, but if it isn't actually there, the gun just becomes a very large paper-weight.

You may as well ask why a well dug-in gun (when emplaced) providing quite a lot of cover to the attending crew (no matter how many of them there might be!) suddenly completely disappears, taking all of its cover with it, if when the gun malfunctions permanently. Why ask why? Just play the game. There are lots worse things to worry about than the height of its shadow at midday.

 

[footsteps]

Not at all. It is a Pak 38 with a gun barrel of a howitzer. Take a look at some photos: its just a pak 38 with a big gun barrel (thats why its called 97 / 38 )

The PaK 97/38 was a marriage of the German PaK 38 carriage with the captured mle 1897 field gun, the "French 75", with a muzzle brake added by the Germans. It was a large, ungainly beast next to the sleek purpose-built PaK 38 & 40 ATGs. The breech, recoil, and firing mechanisms were the original French. The Germans did add a modified shield too.

 

[Juan SantaX]

The PaK 97/38 was a marriage of the German PaK 38 carriage with the captured mle 1897 field gun, the "French 75", with a muzzle brake added by the Germans. It was a large, ungainly beast next to the sleek purpose-built PaK 38 & 40 ATGs. The breech, recoil, and firing mechanisms were the original French. The Germans did add a modified shield too.

They both were the same size. The ammo for the 97/38 was quite shorter with less bulk than the ammo for the pak 40. You can do a short search on the web... Dragon models or Rubicon models have the kits, and you can get an image. Or you can look at the parola finnish tank museum, that have all three. Maybe with a bit of luck you will find one photo of them side by side...one indoors and one outdoors. (( File: pak97-38 parola1.jpg There you can see them side by side. ))

Its obvious, at least to me, that its a design mistake... maybe not like the British 76mm mortar or the L3 being able to shoot CE, but a mistake.

 

[iseca]

My guess is that it has nothing to do with the physical properties of the gun, but is a representation of the concussive force (i.e., noise) of the 97/38 giving a slight penalty to it as a target when drawing enemy fire.

 

[Juan SantaX]

My guess is that it has nothing to do with the physical properties of the gun, but is a representation of the concussive force (i.e., noise) of the 97/38 giving a slight penalty to it as a target when drawing enemy fire.

I see... unlike the pak 40, that is small target, but its bigger, and with faster shells, more heavy...and... I think its better to think that human designers make human mistakes, imho. Anyway maybe that was the reason behind the desing of the all those AT guns, who knows.

 

[iseca]

Human error is certainly a reasonable explanation. Without there being any errata published, I assume it was intentional and was looking at alternate reason. If all three guns are about the same size, but one fires with a lot more "bang", then adjusting target size seems like an easy fix to account for enemy fire being able to find/fix on the target. But in the end, it's just a guess.

 

[Actionjick]

My guess is that it has nothing to do with the physical properties of the gun, but is a representation of the concussive force (i.e., noise) of the 97/38 giving a slight penalty to it as a target when drawing enemy fire.

The problem with this idea is that the gun is still a large target even if it hasn't fired.

 

[iseca]

Sure. Totally on board with that. But at some point there's design fudge factor. How exact can a/the game be?

 

[Philippe Briaux]

The height of the gun tube seems higher for the Pak97/38. It can explain the size difference.

 

[Juan SantaX]

 

[Juan SantaX]

Here you have them side by sideb pak 40, and both pak 97/38 and pak 38 (both same height and bulk imho)

 

[Philippe Briaux]

Compare with this picture of pak38, see where is the opening in the shield and position of the middle bolt / height of tube.

 

[Juan SantaX]

Compare with this picture of pak38, see where is the opening in the shield and position of the middle bolt / height of tube.

View attachment 18018

Agree

 

[Juan SantaX]

But both 38s are same height. (to the top of the gunshield) And that doesnt answer that the pak 40 has more height (to the barrel and to the top of the gunshield imho) and it is small target.