Overrunning Foxhole in Road Woods Hex?

[Tim Niesen]

This morning wechad a situation where a tank passes over a MMC in a foxhole in a road/woods hex. The unit rolled for an attack upon the moving tank unit as it passed over it. It failed to roll low enough. I assumed that the infantry unit did not get the ambush because the tank passed it on the road. If the tank had attempted to overrun the unit would it have been considered in the woods? And gotten the additional ambush advantage? Or is the infantry unit considered in open ground and not in the woods because it is considered on the road and not in the woods? Tim

 

[Tim Niesen]

Duh. Thinking about this situation is the MMC always assumed in this situation to be in the open ground portion of the hex? Certainly if using the road for movement it is in open ground. Can the unit even be in a foxhole in a paved road through the woods. Not sure. Tim

 

[Michael R]

Foxholes are N/A in a paved road hex.

 

[jrv]

An entrenchment may not set up on a paved road (with certain exotic exceptions). That said, I am not aware of any woods-paved-roads.

JR

 

[Tim Niesen]

Okay. Paved roads are few and far between in Russia. Does not usually an SSR state that roads are unpaved rather than not, or in scenarios set in Russia is it the opposite? Certainly in PTO it is the opposite. But is the MMC in a road running through the woods in a foxhole in the woods or out of it. It would be nice if there was a counter depicting which position in such a mixed type of hex was the unit or units in. Don C and I had this situation some years ago, and we concluded that if the units moved down the road it was in open ground, but I am not sure if the unit is stationary. Tim

 

[jrv]

After some research, some CGs have woods-paved-roads.

A unit that is moving using the road movement rate is assumed to be on the road. Whether or not it benefits from the woods TEM will depend on the LOS.
A non-vehicle that is not moving gets the woods TEM. A vehicle is assumed to be on the road portion of the hex unless on a partial trailbreak.

JR

 

[Tim Niesen]

I asked George on the other thread if the roads are paved.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

After some research, some CGs have woods-paved-roads.

Board 72 as well.

 

[Tim Niesen]

In our prospective campaign we are not sure if the roads are paved or not and we are going to fix the situation with a roadblock, but let's consider if they are unpaved. Two situations: unit in foxhole in an unpaved road woods hex and unit in an unpaved road woods hex. Tanks come down the road: for overrun; is the chicken in the road or the woods for overrun and bounding fire purposes, as well as for the question of ambush? Tim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

There is NO Ambush in an OVR.

Added "NO" - see below.

 

[jrv]

There is Ambush in an OVR.

I hope there is a missing "no" in there somewhere.

JR

 

[aneil1234]

There is Ambush in an OVR.

JR...... I was thinking the same ?
But then, I was wondering if I was confused about the whole issue anyway

 

[Tim Niesen]

Okay, maybe I am not clear this is an unpaved road in the woods. Was the Rumanian MMC inherently in the woods despite the road? Woods is ambush terrain and the road is not, although there is not a bog check unless the tank does attempt an overrun in the woods? Can the tank simply not overrun and pass through the hex except an attepted close combat against the moving tank?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

I hope there is a missing "no" in there somewhere.

JR

Correct.

 

[aneil1234]

Tim
Overrun is a MPh activity
Vehicle declares Overrun
MP are spent which can be used by defensive fire OUTSIDE the hex or from INSIDE using IFT/IIFT (agains any CE crew etc) a gun or LATW
Assuming vehicle survived or wasn't immobilised (if it didn't Overrun still happens with 1/2 FP)
then the vehicle completes the overrun

AFTER the overrun has happened the defending infantry that have survived can then use close combat reaction fire per D7 .21
(it can cause do the other things IFT gun or light anti-tank weapon as well. but if you had these things in the 1st place you probably should use them before the overrun not after it !!)
This just happens to use the close combat rules - but it is done during the movement phase
In certain circumstances an ambush can occur this is a special kind of ambush called street fighting. This is found on D7 .211. But this is done with certain circumstances usually involving lots of buildings

An ambush on the other hand, which occurs during close combat phase is initiated by a unit moving during the advancing phase into another hex with a unit.
This may be because it's ambush terrain ( woods or a building in ETO, jungles Kunai, or bamboo in PTO), or 1 of the units if not both are concealed


But seeing overrun happens in the movement phase no ambush per the normal governing of the rules
It's all set out in the overrun flowchart. Which apart from the OVA flowchart are pretty much the only 2 flowcharts I will regularly consult

Hope that helps

 

[jrv]

Okay, maybe I am not clear this is an unpaved road in the woods. Was the Rumanian MMC inherently in the woods despite the road? Woods is ambush terrain and the road is not, although there is not a bog check unless the tank does attempt an overrun in the woods? Can the tank simply not overrun and pass through the hex except an attepted close combat against the moving tank?

The hex is a woods/road hex, which has the features of both. It is ambush terrain in the CCPh, which it inherits from being a woods hex.

As long as the tank enters using the road movement rate and does not attempt to exit via a non-road hexside (which would entail creating a partial trailbreak), it is not a bog hex.

OVR is always voluntary. A vehicle may move into/through a hex with enemy units without declaring an OVR.

JR

 

[jrv]

MP are spent which can be used by defensive fire OUTSIDE the hex or from INSIDE using IFT/IIFT (agains any CE crew etc) a gun or LATW

I found this a bit confusing, sorry. The MP spent for OVR are spent by the moving unit IN the OVR hex. That MP expenditure allows non-CC-RF and/or DFF from units inside and/or outside the OVR hex before the OVR is conducted. Surviving defenders may use CC-RF DFF after the OVR is complete.

JR

 

[aneil1234]

I tried to simplify things
Less abbreviations lol
You're answer is more specific. But the intent is the same. People shoot at MP. Just trying to say some will come from outside the hex being overrun and from inside (as its overrun... or at least just before it )

 

[jrv]

I tried to simplify things
Less abbreviations lol
You're answer is more specific. But the intent is the same. People shoot at MP. Just trying to say some will come from outside the hex being overrun and from inside (as its overrun... or at least just before it )

My confusion was that it sounded like you were saying the OVR-ing vehicle could be targeted outside the OVR hex based on the OVR MP expenditure. After reading your post a couple times I realized that was not what you were saying. I posted to try to make that point clearer.

JR

 

[aneil1234]

I'm pretty sure, we are both confusing each other right now lol
Let's stop and give up why were both behind hahaha


though right now there are blizzard conditions outside
Something I am definitely not used too

The way things are going to be surprised if I have power in the next hour