OtO Input

[Chas]

Not sure why we are discussing this like we are not doing a chapter H. Probably my fault in that the East Front discussion was in another thread. But with a large amount of rare stuff, there will certainly be chapter H pages.

Chas

 

[Barryrk]

I was referring to the notes on the battle itself-not the vehicle notes. CH H for the counters is a must. B.

 

[ASL Maineiac]

I am thinking we do not include the historical notes as this would add to the cost??

I don't own OtO. What kind of historical notes are we talking about? And how do they differ from historical notes BFP did include in its Blood & Jungle pack?

 

[Paul M. Weir]

I don't own OtO. What kind of historical notes are we talking about? And how do they differ from historical notes BFP did include in its Blood & Jungle pack?

17 pages worth of outline of Operation Bagration including high level OoB. What was in B&J was basically a slightly expanded chapter H plus some chapter A nationality stuff. There was some of that in OtO as well as the operation outline.

 

[regularjoe]

The rule book pages included are massive....50 pages.
About 6 pages are rules.
Next 16 are campaign games and CG rules (refit phases, units, etc)
Next 6 are 'Chapter H' style rules for the counters
Next 5 are SASL
The rest are historical notes....some pages are just units listed by front/division/brigade/regiment, etc. There are about 10 pages like this. How much you like them will really hinge on how much detail you need. I could do without these 10 myself in the reprint.

 

[Bob Miller]

Obviously clear up the typos (like the German G3 description and the Russian leader chart)

Keep the examples in the rules (especially the Airplane armaments and the minerollers)

Speaking of minerollers...... B28.7 (which you reference in the mineroller vehicle note) requires the Flail tank to spend all it's MP in the hex to clear the mines. Your mineroller rules allow less MP to be spent, but at a penalty to clearance of the mines. Spend normal MP to enter and suffer a +4drm to the clearance attempt, spend 2 or more MP to enter and get a +2 drm and spend all MP and suffer no clearance drm. It just seems to me that there is a big gap in movement points bang for the buck in your rules. Most Russians will just spend the two points (if open ground) and they can zip forward pretty quick suffering just the +2 drm. It seems that maybe that +2 drm should require 1/4 MPs or something. 2MPs doesn't seem like enough. Just a thought.

 

[Bob Miller]

Hex size. Normally the larger hex size is appreciated but in this case maybe you can reduce the hex size a bit. 1) This battle tends to have less counter density (at least compared to VotGs) so piles of counters spilling over isn't really a problem in this CG and 2) because there are longer LOS between targets, having a slightly smaller map will make those LOS easier to see and thread out. Heck maybe with the extra room you can add a few hexes to the north-south axis of the battle area. That's too much I reckon.

 

[Eduard]

I agree with Bob. Hex size could be reduced a little bit and instead increase the battle area a bit.
About historical notes, they are quite interesting but taking in account many of the future clients probably already own OtO. It's better not to include them in order to reduce price...bankrupcy is a real menace for us ASL players.
And of course, counters should be revised in orther for them to be more similar to ASL "standar".

 

[Chas]

Good stuff. Will re-evaluate the Mineroller rules. The map will definitely be produced in two sections vice the one large one. We will examine the hex size, but that was a positive from before.

thanks much,
Chas

 

[Bob Miller]

Happy New Year Chas. I think it's great that you are asking for thumbs up and down on OtO. Not many thumbs down as this was a classic.

Regarding hex size, normally bigger is better, thus a positive. But in this case as I mentioned above because of the low counter density and longer LOS, you could "justify" going to slightly smaller hexes. I would only do it if you can increase the board width a few hexes. Wider playing area will allow the defense to spread out a bit more (and the attacking Ruskies as well) and this is important considering all that OBA which is flying around.

CG idea, get rid of depletion. You SSR it out on the first AM scenario making all RGs full. Well over half (maybe even 2/3's) the forces for both sides are either At-Start given or purchased the first AM so most RGs are not depleted anyways. I would say just continue the trend. Especially considering some of those big purchases that have a 2/1 depletion number. HUGE difference if a side rolls bad. Just slightly increase the purchase points to account for the larger amount in the budget.

Another CG idea. Tighten the leader variance roll per company. Instead of a "snakes" being a 10-3/9-1/8-0 and "boxcars" giving two Sgt Shultz's (8-0's) make the leader rolls fairly even. Tweak it so standard issuance of a 9-1/8-1/8-0 is given for each Coy. (Russians get slightly worse) Counter this by upping the Leader Battle Hardening table used in refit. Maybe allow two rolls per side or to the winning side (perhaps the winning side gets a second roll but w/o the -2 mod) If the leaders survive the battles, now they have a better chance to get that -2 modifier.

Think out side the box on these CG rules. Just because RB did it or didn't do it a certain way, doesn't mean you have to as well.

 

[dlazov]

Just because RB did it or didn't do it a certain way, doesn't mean you have to as well.

I think this is a very good point. While RB set the standard, don't let it stifle creative thought, AP6 maps come to mind. I don't own the first version so I don't know if OTO had any CG but in large packages like this it's nice to have CG added in.

Besides OTO what other maps may be present?

 

[Chas]

Will relook Depletion as well. Have to be careful to not change too much. The CG is pretty well balanced and fun. I doubt I would be able to expand the map simply from not having the resources I did before.

OtO is the only planned HASL type map at this time. There will be other boards, some guys are already working scens on a DW board for it.

Chas

 

[n3ddy]

I'm so pleased to hear that this will be re-printed! I bought a copy about a year ago for the price of a kidney on eBay (Now I won't be able to help poor Reverend Johnson from Nigeria in his quest to help the homeless...). It's just sat there, unpunched and waiting to be played but I've just been too nervous to sully it's beauty. NOW I can whip it out and have my way with it knowing, as I now do, that it will have a companion sometime in the future!

 

[Richard Weiley]

My recollection of the CG is that we had trouble as the Soviet coming up with enough 50mm mortars and/or their dismantled equivalent from the countermix we had available. Might want to include some of those if copyright issues allow.

 

[custardpie]

Late vote, but yes lets keep the info out. Happy to see it on the web site. I have looked at the notes a few times but not really dived in. Maybe save them as an article for a future magazine that covers the pack as a main topic? kind of Recon By Fire type mag but from the BFP stable?

 

[Chas]

Regardless I will have to update. More info available now, and able to confirm Russian use of M10 Wolverine during Bagration.

Chas

 

[rcornwell]

Happy New Year Chas. I think it's great that you are asking for thumbs up and down on OtO. Not many thumbs down as this was a classic.

Regarding hex size, normally bigger is better, thus a positive. But in this case as I mentioned above because of the low counter density and longer LOS, you could "justify" going to slightly smaller hexes. I would only do it if you can increase the board width a few hexes. Wider playing area will allow the defense to spread out a bit more (and the attacking Ruskies as well) and this is important considering all that OBA which is flying around.

CG idea, get rid of depletion. You SSR it out on the first AM scenario making all RGs full. Well over half (maybe even 2/3's) the forces for both sides are either At-Start given or purchased the first AM so most RGs are not depleted anyways. I would say just continue the trend. Especially considering some of those big purchases that have a 2/1 depletion number. HUGE difference if a side rolls bad. Just slightly increase the purchase points to account for the larger amount in the budget.

Another CG idea. Tighten the leader variance roll per company. Instead of a "snakes" being a 10-3/9-1/8-0 and "boxcars" giving two Sgt Shultz's (8-0's) make the leader rolls fairly even. Tweak it so standard issuance of a 9-1/8-1/8-0 is given for each Coy. (Russians get slightly worse) Counter this by upping the Leader Battle Hardening table used in refit. Maybe allow two rolls per side or to the winning side (perhaps the winning side gets a second roll but w/o the -2 mod) If the leaders survive the battles, now they have a better chance to get that -2 modifier.

Think out side the box on these CG rules. Just because RB did it or didn't do it a certain way, doesn't mean you have to as well.

Great suggestions. I've never liked Depletion for CGs - a few rolls can make a huge difference to balance. Similarly evening out leader rolls makes sense, again a few 2s can skew a CG.

On another note, maybe the CG VC could be tweaked a bit. Currently it's stupid for the Germans to buy any armour as it gives additional CVP for the Russians when it dies (which it will). Guns, aircraft and OBA can do the job with less VP at risk. Another option might be to reduce the cost of the armoured RGs.

 

[macca]

The Orsha Plain

Hi,

Playing the scenario The Orsha Plain and I have a few questions:

Can you place trenches in gullies? What about placing a trench under a bridge?

Can the German set up in half hexes? In our scenario one of their PB is right at the back of the map on a half hex.

The VC talks about Russian units earning EVP - what about prisoners - do they count?

My opponent has the Germans and I have wiped out most of his force and taken prisoners. We are on the last turn. If I exit the prisoners I will be swimming in EVP. If not it will be pretty close.

This looked to favour the Russkies but at game end I will struggle to grab enough PB and EVP - so a good design overall.

Cheers

Murray

 

[SamB]

Re: The Orsha Plain

Here is the list of questions my friend Mike and I have come up with will playing the campaign...

Most of these we've answered... but may need clarification if you republish.

Great Campaign Game, by the way. :laugh:

1. The brush / road from Q48 to Q43… if you move at 1MP, you can get road bonus, but you’ll also get FFMO to unhindered shots?
2. An example of drawing the perimeter would be helpful. The rules are almost a direct copy of Red Barricades, but since only strategic locations and locations occupied by MMC count, it is very different. (I will post some Questions on the forum).
3. Rocket OBA – long discussion on the forum regarding whether there is more than a single FFE:1. (e.g. do you resolve FFE:2?, FFE:C?) This isn’t really a question about OtO, but clarification might be helpful.
4. CVP for cupolas. Got the answer that it’s 5 (like a tank with 5 AF) but putting it in a note would help.
5. A cupola is a strategic location. When it’s destroyed, it leaves no wreck, but it’s still a strategic location.
6. An entrenchment is a strategic location. If and HE attack leaves shell holes, the entrenchment is destroyed. Is it still a strategic location?
7. Do Bombardments count against the maximum of 4 “OBA Modules” the Russian can use?
8. Do Counter Battery modules count as an “OBA Module” for Russian and German Maximum OBA?

 

[rreinesch]

Re: The Orsha Plain

Hi,

Playing the scenario The Orsha Plain and I have a few questions:

Can you place trenches in gullies? What about placing a trench under a bridge?

A: Yes, as per the ASLRB there is nothing to preclude you from doing this, though you'd be better off not doing it since you can save the trench for another/better location. Per B27.6 you could move directly from the gully to the trench without coming out of the gully first and then entering the trench.

Yes.

Can the German set up in half hexes? In our scenario one of their PB is right at the back of the map on a half hex.

A: Yes, they can set up in half hexes.

The VC talks about Russian units earning EVP - what about prisoners - do they count?

A: Unless it states otherwise, EVP for prisoners does count.

Rick