andrea pagni
Member
on you tube there is plenty of material with actual footage
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Znr-eaov20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCY22n6kN1g
and many others
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0Znr-eaov20
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=oCY22n6kN1g
and many others
Tycho
Member
Try this -
http://www.sdcinematografica.com/index.php?code=prodotti_pagina_4_817
They've got a bunch of other stuff as well. Even non-WWII productions (gasp!)
THH149
Member
From a vague memory of reading the books years ago, the german's blew a DC every time the brits came close, so that eventually the 'whole' town was destroyed, after the para germans decided they were losing to many men. Are there plentiful DCSs for the germans in this beast?
Those compact Italian towns were real mazes with lots of foot traffic only laneways, while even main roads were mainly narrow streets. The buildings perhaps shouldn't allow vehicular bypass, but force them to go through rubble, apart for 'normal' roads! Are there SSRs for that?
Great stuff though!
g
Those compact Italian towns were real mazes with lots of foot traffic only laneways, while even main roads were mainly narrow streets. The buildings perhaps shouldn't allow vehicular bypass, but force them to go through rubble, apart for 'normal' roads! Are there SSRs for that?
Great stuff though!
g
Honza
The Art Of Wargames
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I reckon the town needs some clever intuitive thinking to get the rules right. Plus the map needs modifying to be accurate in its representation.
Vinnie
See Dummies in the index
It is a balance. Do you go for geograohical exactitude or do you aim to make it play like the bttle.
andrea pagni
Member
if someone is interested, you can go to google maps, look for orte, which is a town which has a lot of characteristics like ortona at the time of the battle.. and then go to street view and have a look at what was the felling..
I am not claiming that the map must be exactly the same as the one shown in the pics-- but if we want to have the right feeling, some works has to be done. Actually Stalingrad looked more like open spaces in comparison.
ciao
I am not claiming that the map must be exactly the same as the one shown in the pics-- but if we want to have the right feeling, some works has to be done. Actually Stalingrad looked more like open spaces in comparison.
ciao
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Honza
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What about a solid mass of buildings with black bars across every building hexside (effectively isolating each hex from every other building). Separated by narrow streets and paths.
Tater
Elder Member
When I playtested way back when mud was in effect. Combined with some of the other terrain it was kind of a slogging along slow paced affair.
Tater
Elder Member
Looks to me like a "no bypass allowed" SSR needs to be considered.
BattleSchool
Elder Member
BattleSchool
Elder Member
Philippe Briaux
Member
It is the map I did for Jim from his hand-drawn map years ago.
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Proff3RTR
Elder Member
That looks a lot better in my humble opinion
von Marwitz
Forum Guru
Hm, maybe some part of the trouble is actually the artwork depiction of the houses and streets?
Someone mentioned further up-thread that the town will play as Ortona. And in fact there seems to be no huge difference if you have a Narrow Street or bypass along the the hexsides of some (row-)houses. It will be slow going in both cases.
The solution could be (without negating the bypass possibility) to simply enlarge the building artwort as much as possible, so that the streets at least look more narrow, i.e. to bring the visual appearance of the buildings more in line with how they will play regading to ASL movement.
And thinking of small Italian town on a hill that I have visited, one might want to consider to make entry of a building by tank more restricted especially if that building is in a hex with a crest-line.
von Marwitz
Someone mentioned further up-thread that the town will play as Ortona. And in fact there seems to be no huge difference if you have a Narrow Street or bypass along the the hexsides of some (row-)houses. It will be slow going in both cases.
The solution could be (without negating the bypass possibility) to simply enlarge the building artwort as much as possible, so that the streets at least look more narrow, i.e. to bring the visual appearance of the buildings more in line with how they will play regading to ASL movement.
And thinking of small Italian town on a hill that I have visited, one might want to consider to make entry of a building by tank more restricted especially if that building is in a hex with a crest-line.
von Marwitz
BattleSchool
Elder Member
I think that I may have a (relatively) simple fix for Ortona streets.
Narrow streets do not work well because they are drawn along hexsides. Replicating the long, narrow streets (and their long LOS) is better done using another underutilized ASL rule. The rule will require some work, but I think that a modification of a Buidling-Road hex (Q5.5) may be the way to go.
Vehicles in a Buidling Road are treated as being on the road, not in Bypass (although they would be vulnerable to Street Fighting by units in the same hex). There could also be restrictions on TCA changes due to barrel length.
Ignore the centre dots on the building depictions below. Feel free to add as many black bars (for Rowhouses) as required. But I think this gives a good simulation of the close-quarter nature of Ortona without resorting to Narrow Streets (along hexsides).
My apologies if the development of the HASL is not too far along to accommodate such changes. The idea only occurred to me about an hour ago.
-Chris
View attachment 49150
More thinking out loud...
I gather that Ortona will have larger, HASL-size hexes. This would be useful for indicating a number of things:
1. Which side of the road (i.e. Location) an Infantry unit is on when in an Ortona Building-Road hex;
2. The possible placement of (1/2") Debris/Roadblock counters in the road portion of an OBR hex; and possibly
3. A 1/2" street counter to indicate that an Infantry unit is in the street portion of an OBR hex.
Infantry would have to enter the road portion of an ORB hex to cross the street. I think that this is in keeping with the way the battle was fought. Infantry avoided crossing the streets, preferring to move from building to building, "mouseholing" where necessary. Dashing would be permitted, but not necessarily the default means of crossing from one side of an ORB hex to the other.
I do not recall seeing any "building overpasses" in Ortona. (Some Italian towns have these. But these should be easy to model--a bit like the Marketplace on board 12. if required).
I am sure that there are other implications of adding an OBR Terrain to Ortona. Feel free to chime in.
{17 Mar edit} More thoughts...
Given the narrowness of these streets, all fire attacks vs Dashing Infantry (A4.63) could receive a cumulative +1 DRM (treated as an LV hindrance) when fired upon in the road Location. Such DRM ceases the instant Dash benefits become NA (A4.63).
The biggest problem is reconciling how to treat units in each Location of an OBR hex. I think treating them as ADJACENT makes sense, but should TPBF fire apply? Unless one side is in the road portion of the hex, one would still need to hurl grenades across the street, for example.
Also, it would be conceivable that an ATG could be set up in the road portion of the hex, affording LOS directly down the street. However, units in the building (on either side of the street) would not be able to see along the street.
I admit that some streets (narrow alleys, really) should be impassable to vehicles, and treated more like a foot bridge (B6.44), or perhaps a path, rather than a road (i.e. no Road Bonus, even for Infantry, and possible stacking limitations on the number of units that can move along these routes during the same MPh).
Lots to think about.
Narrow streets do not work well because they are drawn along hexsides. Replicating the long, narrow streets (and their long LOS) is better done using another underutilized ASL rule. The rule will require some work, but I think that a modification of a Buidling-Road hex (Q5.5) may be the way to go.
Vehicles in a Buidling Road are treated as being on the road, not in Bypass (although they would be vulnerable to Street Fighting by units in the same hex). There could also be restrictions on TCA changes due to barrel length.
Ignore the centre dots on the building depictions below. Feel free to add as many black bars (for Rowhouses) as required. But I think this gives a good simulation of the close-quarter nature of Ortona without resorting to Narrow Streets (along hexsides).
My apologies if the development of the HASL is not too far along to accommodate such changes. The idea only occurred to me about an hour ago.
-Chris
View attachment 49150
More thinking out loud...
I gather that Ortona will have larger, HASL-size hexes. This would be useful for indicating a number of things:
1. Which side of the road (i.e. Location) an Infantry unit is on when in an Ortona Building-Road hex;
2. The possible placement of (1/2") Debris/Roadblock counters in the road portion of an OBR hex; and possibly
3. A 1/2" street counter to indicate that an Infantry unit is in the street portion of an OBR hex.
Infantry would have to enter the road portion of an ORB hex to cross the street. I think that this is in keeping with the way the battle was fought. Infantry avoided crossing the streets, preferring to move from building to building, "mouseholing" where necessary. Dashing would be permitted, but not necessarily the default means of crossing from one side of an ORB hex to the other.
I do not recall seeing any "building overpasses" in Ortona. (Some Italian towns have these. But these should be easy to model--a bit like the Marketplace on board 12. if required).
I am sure that there are other implications of adding an OBR Terrain to Ortona. Feel free to chime in.
{17 Mar edit} More thoughts...
Given the narrowness of these streets, all fire attacks vs Dashing Infantry (A4.63) could receive a cumulative +1 DRM (treated as an LV hindrance) when fired upon in the road Location. Such DRM ceases the instant Dash benefits become NA (A4.63).
The biggest problem is reconciling how to treat units in each Location of an OBR hex. I think treating them as ADJACENT makes sense, but should TPBF fire apply? Unless one side is in the road portion of the hex, one would still need to hurl grenades across the street, for example.
Also, it would be conceivable that an ATG could be set up in the road portion of the hex, affording LOS directly down the street. However, units in the building (on either side of the street) would not be able to see along the street.
I admit that some streets (narrow alleys, really) should be impassable to vehicles, and treated more like a foot bridge (B6.44), or perhaps a path, rather than a road (i.e. no Road Bonus, even for Infantry, and possible stacking limitations on the number of units that can move along these routes during the same MPh).
Lots to think about.
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BattleSchool
Elder Member
Bonne job.
G.L.O.A.T.
Shut up and Play
... must ... resist ... comment ... about ... bone ... aaaiiiieeeuyyyy!!!Bonne job.