Orsha Questions...

SamB

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Hi,

I'm playing the campaign and I have a couple of questions.

1. Cupolas are defined as a strategic location. I assume that once the cupola is destroyed, the hex is no longer a strategic location?

2. What is the CVP earned by the Russian for destroying a cupola? Is it just the 2 CVP for the crew?

Thanks. I'm sure I'll have more. :)
 

rreinesch

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Hi Sam,
For #1, it is still considered a strategic location even when destroyed.

For #2, it is 2 CVP for the crew, 1 for the AF, 1 for the MA, 1 for the Cupola for 5 CVP total.

Rick
 
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SamB

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Thanks, Rick. Good to have an official answer. :)

I am really enjoying this campaign. :redapple::vegguitar::devil::bandrum:
 

rreinesch

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I am really enjoying this campaign. :redapple::vegguitar::devil::bandrum:
Been following your exploits from your reports. I think it is a great CG, so I'm glad to hear that you are enjoying it.

Rick
 

Chas

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Sam,

When you are complete, please compile and send any comments to us offline on how to improve the CG when we reprint as part of East Front.

Thanks,
Chas
 

SamB

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Sam,

When you are complete, please compile and send any comments to us offline on how to improve the CG when we reprint as part of East Front.

Thanks,
Chas
Chas, I've started a Word Document with a list of questions. But here's one I need some help with as we are about to play turn 5 and the scenario may end.

Refer to this picture for these questions. Assume these are the front line Russian positions at Scenario end.
View attachment 33145

The red line represents what I –think- would be the Russian perimeter. Questions:
  1. Since the Germans control the three track locations, should the Russian perimeter be drawn to exclude those? (Probably).
  2. The three Russian Tanks are outside the perimeter. They would have to “escape”, correct?
  3. Would the perimeter be any different if German units occupied non-strategic locations inside the Russian lines?
  4. Some of the shell holes (black circles, white background) and the top of the picture used to be German trenches. Are these still considered strategic locations? I already asked about cupolas that were destroyed and was told these were still strategic locations, so I think they probably are.
As I understand it, for Orsha, the only locations that matter are Strategic locations and locations your MMC occupy at game end. (broken or good order) I think there is a statement that your perimeter cannot be traced through an enemy MMC occupied hex, but it can include them inside your perimeter.

Do I have that right?

Thanks
 

Chas

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Sam,

I am personally not very good at the whole CG Perimeter Draw thing. OtO was modelled after RB for that and should be similar. Hopefully some of the more experienced CG players can chime in and assist with the perimeter draw stuff.

Chas
 

SamB

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Thanks, Chas.

I am fairly confident that I have the perimeter right. The differences betweek OtO and RB is that in OtO you only look at locations occupied by MMC, and strategic locations. This means that AFV's don't count for drawing the permieter, for one thing. But other that that, the example in RB is pretty good. :)

Can someone tell me if entrenchments that are destroyed by OBA or HE attack are still strategic locations?
 

ASRomafan

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Thanks, Chas.

I am fairly confident that I have the perimeter right. The differences betweek OtO and RB is that in OtO you only look at locations occupied by MMC, and strategic locations. This means that AFV's don't count for drawing the permieter, for one thing. But other that that, the example in RB is pretty good. :)

Can someone tell me if entrenchments that are destroyed by OBA or HE attack are still strategic locations?
Hi Sam, I don't think that possibility has been addressed in the rules. I have always played it that it is still a strategic location. It marks a defensive position whose inherent value is not the entrenchment itself but the entrenchment marking a location important to the defender in terms of the defense. Capturing it marks 'progress' for the attacker, and losing it a less viable defense for the defender.

btw. Do you have J9? Look at the CG rules for Suicide Creek, they have a nice chart on Z69 for situation like you decribed for the 3 Russian tanks. Much easier to follow than the Red Barricades RePh rules.
 

SamB

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Thanks. I do have J9. I'll look at the example.

I think we've desided to play that a destroyed entrenchment remains a strategic location. But it would be nice if the rule were clarified.

Thanks again.
Sam
 

ASRomafan

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Thanks. I do have J9. I'll look at the example.

I think we've desided to play that a destroyed entrenchment remains a strategic location. But it would be nice if the rule were clarified.

Thanks again.
Sam
No problem Sam! I hope the J9 example helped!

Perhaps it has been clarified somewhere, that isn't really a question unique to the Orsha game I suppose since it uses the RePH structure going all the way back to Red Barricades. I'd be surprised if you were the first to ask that. That question might be addressed to AH/MMP I suppose if a clarification is needed. We just broke out the common sense card. It goes hand in hand with the cupola question. The reasoning IMO, it is the location that is made strategic in terms of the defense by the fortification being put there. The fortification itself is not 'strategic'. That is how I see it at least. :)
 

Bob Miller

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I have always been of the opinion that a MMC in Open Ground should not be considered a Strategic Location. Closer to "dead meat" than strategically located from a reality arguement, but reality and ASL sometimes are not in sync. But that's how RB made it. I would like to see OtO use a Pegasus Bridge style Strat Location w/ 2 hex ZOC for Refit phase. Makes sense in this wider open ground style of fighting. Is that on the revision table Chas? It may be worth considering.
 

ASRomafan

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I would like to see OtO use a Pegasus Bridge style Strat Location w/ 2 hex ZOC for Refit phase. Makes sense in this wider open ground style of fighting. Is that on the revision table Chas? It may be worth considering.
great idea!
 

Chas

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Yes, this question isnt necessarily unique to just OtO. I think play as a strategic location, and I will be grateful to hear your thoughts on how that works afterward.

In polling players who have played CGs, the RB style perimeter appeared to much preferred over other methods. But I am not against looking at this differently.

Chas
 

ASRomafan

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Yes, this question isnt necessarily unique to just OtO. I think play as a strategic location, and I will be grateful to hear your thoughts on how that works afterward.

In polling players who have played CGs, the RB style perimeter appeared to much preferred over other methods. But I am not against looking at this differently.

Chas
fwiw. I like the idea of sticking with with RB style. It is definitely preferred over other methods. It doesn't hurt that even if one hasn't used it, it is no problem to find someone who has, not to mention having 20 odd years of (I would assume) de-bugging and fine tuning behind it.
 

Bob Miller

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Only two of the AH/MMP CGs use the perimeter line Refit methodology. The remainder, Veritable, Pegasus Bridge, KGP I & II, Primsole Bridge all use the Strat Location and 2 hex ZOC. A Bridge Too Far does the block control thingie, which I never played.

That draw the perimeter line between Stat Locations RB style could really break this Orsha Refit. In theory one could have Strat Locations 12 some hexes apart, sepereted by nothing but open ground and all that open ground would be considered controlled territory, eligible to be set up in for the next CG date. Even though that open ground could be under direct LOS by the opposing side's Guns, tanks and MGs just a few hexes away. That doesn't make sense.

I'm sure it's beyond the scope of any tweaks to this CG but I would like to see differential Set-up instructions based on whether the preceding CG "battle" was a Day battle or a night battle. Reasoning being; each side would find it easier to bring troops up to the front line during the cover of darkness. Trying to do so during broad daylight between same date, daytime battles seems to be stretching the reality concept a bit too much for my tastes.

Perhaps in mid-May I could convince Holst to play this CG again, but this time we would play it under Strat-Location ZOC rules and see how it plays out.
 

ASRomafan

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That draw the perimeter line between Stat Locations RB style could really break this Orsha Refit. In theory one could have Strat Locations 12 some hexes apart, sepereted by nothing but open ground and all that open ground would be considered controlled territory, eligible to be set up in for the next CG date. Even though that open ground could be under direct LOS by the opposing side's Guns, tanks and MGs just a few hexes away. That doesn't make sense.
you've really piqued my interest to play Orsha again but with the ZOC rules.
 

SamB

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Hello again... Getting ready to start this again - first scenario finished and due to a "perfect storm" of rain, heavy rain, rocket artilary, and dice the Germans felt they were finished. So, trying once more....

A question. The rules say that the Russian can have no more than 4 OBA "Modules". But what is an OBA module?

Clearly 70mm OBA, 120mm OBA and 150mm OBA are... what about rocket artilary? (I think they are.)

What about a bombardment? If so, do the two "free" bombardments count as two of the 4 allowed in the first scenario?

What about a counter battery module?

All of these reinforcement groups are "O" type groups and I can see where they may be considered OBA Modules... Just wondering. For the first scenario, you could easily buy 4 OBA modules in addition to the 2 bombardments - and pick up a counter battery module as well. Would this be legal?

Thanks
Sam
 

rdw5150

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When we played, we did not count bombardments as OBA, but everything else (OBA, Rocket, Counter Battery) is considered "OBA". Not certain rules wise where that would be found, but seems to make sense.........

Peace

Roger
 
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