Ordnance SMOKE as DFF?

burniefox

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Can ordnance smoke be fired as Defensive First Fire during the opponents MPh?

C8.5 says "Smoke23 may be placed by ordnance/OBA only at the start of the owner’s PFPh/DFPh. Once any unit fires anything other than SMOKE during that PFPh/DFPh, no SMOKE may be fired during that PFPh/DFPh."

My thought is "no", but is DFF considered part of the DFPh for this purpose?

TIA-

Burnie
 

Robin Reeve

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Only WP can be fired during the MPh.
C8.6 WHITE PHOSPHORUS (WP): Unlike Smoke, WP may be fired by ordnance during (but prior to any friendly unit firing anything other than SMOKE) any friendly fire phase—not just the PFPh/DFPh—although placement in other than the PFPh results in Dispersed WP
.
 

Eagle4ty

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Only WP can be fired during the MPh.
.
Less sure of this response as in one instance A.15 does not state that Defensive First Fire during the opponent's MPh is indeed a DEFENDER'S Fire Phase but that such D1F does not violate the general rule that no unit can fire in more than one phase per Player Turn (7.1). Does this negate even the use of WP as D1F is really not considered a DEFENDER's Fire Phase? However having said as much, there are plenty of Q&A that support the position that indeed D1F and Final Fire during the actual DFPh is considered all part of a DFPh (See Q&A related to A.15; B9.53; and C13.31,3) to mention but a few); so it may be possible that any kind of SMOKE may be fired as either D1F or Final Fire, and is further supported by the fact that a vehicle can intervene with sD's as a part of Motion attempt belying the position that only WP may be fired during the opponent's MPh (not all sD's fire WP). In a final analysis is is really not inherently clear and perhaps a question to Perry could be in order to resolve a grey area interpreted differently.
 

Jon

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Less sure of this response as in one instance A.15 does not state that Defensive First Fire during the opponent's MPh is indeed a DEFENDER'S Fire Phase but that such D1F does not violate the general rule that no unit can fire in more than one phase per Player Turn (7.1). Does this negate even the use of WP as D1F is really not considered a DEFENDER's Fire Phase? However having said as much, there are plenty of Q&A that support the position that indeed D1F and Final Fire during the actual DFPh is considered all part of a DFPh (See Q&A related to A.15; B9.53; and C13.31,3) to mention but a few); so it may be possible that any kind of SMOKE may be fired as either D1F or Final Fire, and is further supported by the fact that a vehicle can intervene with sD's as a part of Motion attempt belying the position that only WP may be fired during the opponent's MPh (not all sD's fire WP). In a final analysis is is really not inherently clear and perhaps a question to Perry could be in order to resolve a grey area interpreted differently.
Smoke (as in Smoke, not WP) can only be placed at start of the owner's PFPh/DFph [C8.5]
C8.6 "Unlike Smoke, WP can be fired by ordnance during (but prior to any friendly unit firing anything other than SMOKE) any friendly fire phase -not just the PFPh/DFPh..."


C8.6
May the DEFENDER fire WP (either using Area Target Type or from a BAZ45) as Defensive First Fire against an ATTACKER’s
moving unit (s)?
A. Yes (C8.6), however, the WP would still have to be fired before any non-SMOKE ammo in that phase.

A8.1 & C8.6
May a Gun fire WP during DFF (is DFF considered a friendly fire phase – C8.6?)? I’d say yes (which would explain exception
about non moving units in A24.31).
A. Yes, provided no other non-WP DFF has occurred; C8.6. {1}

A8.1, A24.31, C3.33 & C3.4 If ordnance
Defensive First Fires WP at a Location that
contains moving and non-moving units both
friendly and enemy, which of them can be
affected by a hit?
A. Only those that are both moving and hit, but
regardless of whether they are friendly or enemy.
[An91; An95w; An96; Mw]

C8.6 Within the restrictions of C8.6, can WP be
fired at a moving enemy unit during the enemy
MPh? If yes, would only the moving unit(s) in the
target Location be to the NMC?
A. Yes to both. However, the WP would still
have to be fired before any non-SMOKE ammo
in that phase. [An92; An95w; An96; Mw]


Seems quite clear to me that WP can be fired at a moving enemy unit as D1F, provided no other non-SMOKE ammo has been fired

Cheers
Jon
 

klasmalmstrom

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Seems quite clear to me that WP can be fired at a moving enemy unit as D1F, provided no other non-SMOKE ammo has been fired
Agree - though somewhat unfortunate - only but those Q&A (some official) - not by how the rules are written (and they were not updated in this regard in the 2nd Edition), since the opponent's MPh is not (by the Index definiton) a "friendly fire phase".

IMO, C8.6 should have been updated something like this (ala Thrown DC rule):
8.6 WHITE PHOSPHORUS (WP): Unlike Smoke, WP may be fired by ordnance during (but prior to any friendly unit firing anything other than SMOKE) any friendly fire phase (or Defensive First Fire)—not just the PFPh/DFPh—although placement in other than the PFPh results in Dispersed WP (see A24.5). See 1.71 and A24.31-.32 for further effects.
 

Robin Reeve

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A small erratum along Klas' suggestion would make things clear.
Anyway, the OP's question was about Smoke being fired during DFF, and that is clearly excluded by the rules.
 
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