options for a squad when an AFV starts its movement in the same hex

[tailesin]

In the following situation what can the defender squad do aganist the enemy AFV

A rusian squad 447 with an ATR are in the same hex than an stopped german sdkfz 222 Armoured car CE. The squad is at the moment marqued melee because it advanced to CC in the last turn after passing the PAATC.

Now its the turn of the germans and the 222 wishes to exit the hex. The 222 expends one MP to start and will continue moving out of the hex.

Can the 447 fire at the 222 AC when it starts with the ATR or as infantry with TPBF?

Can the 447 try to make a CC reaction Fire? And if it can, does it need to pass another PAATC this new turn even though It has no need to enter the HEX and passed one just to enter the hex in the last Advph?

Many thanks, I'm a bit confused with A11.6 and the example in page A33 referring to hex L5 of the example when it seems the second PAATC is not necessary. And also the Reaction fire rules.

Thanks for your answers

 

[klasmalmstrom]

In the following situation what can the defender squad do aganist the enemy AFV

A rusian squad 447 with an ATR are in the same hex than an stopped german sdkfz 222 Armoured car CE. The squad is at the moment marqued melee because it advanced to CC in the last turn after passing the PAATC.

Now its the turn of the germans and the 222 wishes to exit the hex. The 222 expends one MP to start and will continue moving out of the hex.

Can the 447 fire at the 222 AC when it starts with the ATR or as infantry with TPBF?

Yes. You can e.g., shoot the ATR as ordnance and use the inherent FP on the IFT as two separate attacks on that same Start MP.

Can the 447 try to make a CC reaction Fire? And if it can, does it need to pass another PAATC this new turn even though It has no need to enter the HEX and passed one just to enter the hex in the last Advph?

Yes, and I think another PAATC is required, NRBH.

 

[jrv]

Many thanks, I'm a bit confused with A11.6 and the example in page A33 referring to hex L5 of the example when it seems the second PAATC is not necessary.

In the example the Soviet squad takes a PAATC to retain concealment when a German PzIVH moves into the hex during the MPh. Because it passed its PAATC, it could opt to attack the AFV using CCRF without a PAATC in that MPh per D7.21, "To attempt CC Reaction Fire vs an AFV, the DEFENDER must first pass a PAATC unless it is exempt from PAATC (A11.6) or took one when the AFV entered its Location earlier in the MPh (A23.41)." The squad declines to attack. The EX continues with the squad attacking in the following CCPh, losing concealment and being marked with Melee. It need not take a PAATC because during the CCPh no PAATC is required (one would be required to Advance in with an AFV per A11.6, but this is the German turn, so the Soviet squad may not Advance). If the situation does not change through the next Soviet turn, in the next German turn--not covered in great detail in the EX--the tank might start and, "the 4-4-7 will no longer be held in Melee and could conduct a CC Reaction Fire (but not a Non-CC Reaction Fire) attack." This last bit is somewhat deceptive. The requirements of D7.21 are still in place, the Soviet squad did not pass a PAATC earlier in *this second German* MPh (even though it did so in the first German MPh; passing a PAATC in a previous turn does not exempt a unit for the rest of the game), so it must make one before it could make its CCRF in this next turn. The EX is primarily about the German CCPh and only lightly covers earlier and later actions.

JR

 

[Philippe D.]

So, as a followup...

After the initial CCPh, the squad is held in Melee, but not the AFV, right? And if the AFV happens to leave, and there is no opposing unit remaining, the squad is no longer held in Melee - but when does this Melee condition end? Right when the AFV expends a Start MP? (NRBH, plus this is some part of the rules I _know_ I'd have to read again)

 

[klasmalmstrom]

After the initial CCPh, the squad is held in Melee, but not the AFV, right? And if the AFV happens to leave, and there is no opposing unit remaining, the squad is no longer held in Melee - but when does this Melee condition end? Right when the AFV expends a Start MP? (NRBH, plus this is some part of the rules I _know_ I'd have to read again)

As soon as the vehicle expends a Start MP.

 

[Russ Isaia]

Just trying to conduct the dots on the OP, but how can the unit fire its IFP or ATR before the vehicle leaves its hex, as suggested earlier? Isn't that Non-CC Reaction Fire, which is allowed only if the unit is in an OVR Location?

 

[jrv]

Just trying to conduct the dots on the OP, but how can the unit fire its IFP or ATR before the vehicle leaves its hex, as suggested earlier? Isn't that Non-CC Reaction Fire, which is allowed only if the unit is in an OVR Location?

Yes, but that is deceptive. Instead of Non-CC Reaction Fire you can just use plain Defensive First Fire. Non-CC Reaction Fire is an enhanced, modified version of plain Defensive First Fire. In Non-CC Reaction Fire the shot takes place *after* the OVR is resolved (which may explain why you can't use it if there is no OVR: there's nothing to go after). Non-CC Reaction Fire gives the Gun a CA change that does not apply as a DRM to the shot (Case A and Case E are n/a) and automatically hits the rear. Plain DFF will attack before an OVR (if any), hit a random facing [D3.2] and Case A & E may apply (not for an ATR, of course). In an OVR *is* being made, the unit may be subject to OVR Prevention when using plain DFF.

JR

 

[Russ Isaia]

Yes, but that is deceptive. Instead of Non-CC Reaction Fire you can just use plain Defensive First Fire. Non-CC Reaction Fire is an enhanced, modified version of plain Defensive First Fire. In Non-CC Reaction Fire the shot takes place *after* the OVR is resolved (which may explain why you can't use it if there is no OVR: there's nothing to go after). Non-CC Reaction Fire gives the Gun a CA change that does not apply as a DRM to the shot (Case A and Case E are n/a) and automatically hits the rear. Plain DFF will attack before an OVR (if any), hit a random facing [D3.2] and Case A & E may apply (not for an ATR, of course). In an OVR *is* being made, the unit may be subject to OVR Prevention when using plain DFF.

JR

"deceptive" -- damn near imperceptible! I take it then that non-CC Reaction Fire is a "bonus," in the form of a guaranteed shot at the rear target facing, granted in compensation for having survived an OVR attack.

 

[von Marwitz]

"deceptive" -- damn near imperceptible!

On this I have to agree. The CC-Reaction Fire and Non-CC Reaction fire, Streetfighting, and normal DFF, OVR Prevention stuff is one part of the rules that I find it very difficult to sort out.

von Marwitz

 

[jrv]

On this I have to agree. The CC-Reaction Fire and Non-CC Reaction fire, Streetfighting, and normal DFF, OVR Prevention stuff is one part of the rules that I find it very difficult to sort out.

Perhaps you should look at the Overrun Flowchart from Action Pack 2.

JR

 

[Yuri0352]

Perhaps you should look at the Overrun Flowchart from Action Pack 2.

JR

Carl's article 'Crosstown Traffic ' in Journal 8 was a big help for my understanding of these rules.

 

[Russ Isaia]

Perhaps you should look at the Overrun Flowchart from Action Pack 2.

JR

Also available as a binder divider in some recent module, with the IIFT on the reverse (HP?). I guess a more descriptive if less catchy title would be the "Vehicular Entry of Enemy-Occupied Hexes" Flowchart.

 

[von Marwitz]

Perhaps you should look at the Overrun Flowchart from Action Pack 2.

JR

Hehe, I don't resolve an OVR without it...

von Marwitz

 

[tailesin]

Thank you for the detailed answers. Now it's clear.

Pitty that the Example in the rulebook induces confussion. I think it should be ammended in order to clarify the procedure. Including the requirement of the PAATC for the squad in the same Hex as the tank and also the "447 which withdrew from K4 to K5 who could now attack the Pz IV on its start MP with Street fighting CC reaction fire..." Even though in this case there is a reference to D7.211, the requirement to pass the PAATC is in D7.21. so you can forget.

Deceptive, indeed !!

Thanks again