Olive Groves and Vehicular Wall Advantage

[burniefox]

So, B14.8 states:

"14.8 OLIVE GROVE: A SSR may specify that orchard hexes are olive grove hexes instead. All orchard rules apply to such hexes, except that an olive grove also has a +1 TEM, its MF/MP costs are double those of an orchard, and it is never out of season; vehicles may gain WA (9.32) in an olive grove hex."

Olive Groves are not hexside TEM, so what does it mean for a vehicle to have WA in an Olive Grove since Infantry cannot? Does it gain Hull Down status?

TIA-

B-

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

There still has to be a wall to gain WA, but B9.32 (referenced) normally would preclude a vehicle from getting WA in an olive grove since it has +1 TEM (unlike an orchard). This sentence is serving to make it an exception to B9.32's prohibition on gaining WA in such a hex.

Man, if I've ever known that vehicles can't gain WA with in-hex TEM of +1, I'd forgotten it until looking this up. I'm sure I've set a tank up illegally as a result.

 

[burniefox]

There still has to be a wall to gain WA, but B9.32 (referenced) normally would preclude a vehicle from getting WA in an olive grove since it has +1 TEM (unlike an orchard). This sentence is serving to make it an exception to B9.32's prohibition on gaining WA in such a hex.

I get that. What I'm really getting at, I guess, is does WA in an Olive Grove = Hull Down?

 

[Michael R]

I would say "yes", the vehicle is Hull Down, with WA or not. The only difference is to adjacent infantry on the other side of the wall.

 

[jrv]

I get that. What I'm really getting at, I guess, is does WA in an Olive Grove = Hull Down?

Even in a non-olive grove (e.g. woods) the vehicle would be hull down to non-adjacent firers. The vehicle just can't prevent someone else from grabbing WA by moving adjacent, and against those attackers it would not be HD (again, e.g. in woods). If in an olive grove it would be HD against non-adjacent attackers, and if it marked itself with a WA counter it would retain WA and be HD vs. adjacent attackers as well, all through the wall hexside.

JR

 

[burniefox]

If in an olive grove it would be HD against non-adjacent attackers, and if it marked itself with a WA counter it would retain WA and be HD vs. adjacent attackers as well, all through the wall hexside.

That's what I thought. Just wanted to make sure I wasn't off-base.

Thanks-

 

[Spencer Armstrong]

I get that. What I'm really getting at, I guess, is does WA in an Olive Grove = Hull Down?

LOL. My bad. I grabbed my rulebook before I read your final sentence...

My turn, then: why can't Infantry get WA in an olive grove? You mention that in the OP and I don't see why that would be in the rules.

 

[burniefox]

If in an olive grove it would be HD against non-adjacent attackers, and if it marked itself with a WA counter it would retain WA and be HD vs. adjacent attackers as well, all through the wall hexside.

Wait, I just re-read this (emphasis mine). What if the Olive Grove hex has no wall hexsides? I assume a vehicle that claims WA in such an Olive Grove hex would be Hull Down, whether the firer is adjacent or not?

 

[jrv]

Wait, I just re-read this (emphasis mine). What if the Olive Grove hex has no wall hexsides? I assume a vehicle that claims WA in such an Olive Grove hex would be Hull Down, whether the firer is adjacent or not?

If a hex has no walls(/hedges/etc), you can't claim WA [B9.32]. All HD/wall TEM is through a wall hexside [B9.36]. Further if you claim WA (because you do have a wall-like hexside), fire through the other hexides would not be affected by either the wall or the olive grove, i.e. no HD, no TEM.

JR

 

[Bill Cirillo]

A few things relative to: "B14.8 OLIVE GROVE: A SSR may specify that orchard hexes are olive grove hexes instead. All orchard rules apply to such hexes, except that an olive grove also has a +1 TEM, its MF/MP costs are double those of an orchard, and it is never out of season; vehicles may gain WA (9.32) in an olive grove hex."

1. I played an individual that interpreted the portion in red to mean that a vehicle in an Olive Grove hex may gain WA and thus be considered Hull Down regardless of if the fire was through a wall hexside or not. That is, the Olive Grove itself imparted the WA/HD status. This didn't seem logical to me. My interpretation of the statement was the exact same as Spencer's above:

"There still has to be a wall to gain WA, but B9.32 (referenced) normally would preclude a vehicle from getting WA in an olive grove since it has +1 TEM (unlike an orchard). This sentence is serving to make it an exception to B9.32's prohibition on gaining WA in such a hex."

Q. So, does the existence of an Olive Grove impart WA and the associated HD status independent of there being a wall along the direction of fire?

2. deleted nonsense.

Oops...just read my statements and realized my own error...never mind the logic crash on the side of the road.

Bill

 

[klasmalmstrom]

You still need a hedge/wall to claim WA.

 

[burniefox]

Oh! So it's the +1 TEM of an Olive Grove that requires the exception to B9.32!

"A unit may claim WA over a same level wall/hedge hexside if it is an armed, unbroken ground level unit which is not: a vehicle eligible to receive in-hex TEM of ≥ 1..."

OK, I think the light has finally gone on!

Thanks!

 

[burniefox]

1. I played an individual that interpreted the portion in red to mean that a vehicle in an Olive Grove hex may gain WA and thus be considered Hull Down regardless of if the fire was through a wall hexside or not. That is, the Olive Grove itself imparted the WA/HD status. This didn't seem logical to me.

This is where my brain was at, and it didn't seem logical to me either!

I got it now.