Official CMN Release Date Betting Pool.

Geordie

CM Moderator
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
2,111
Reaction score
13
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
Who is taking the day off from work?
Due to days owing from Exercises I am actually off for the next few days. Ive played around with it all afternoon, but have yet to finish a game. Ive found the QB menus kind of frustrating in a stupid sort of way. Im also experiencing continued bewilderment at engagement ranges and 1st shot hits. I had an M5 score a 1st shot hit at 1520 meters on a Stug. Didnt hurt the thing but kind of strange as it doesnt seem to be a fluke. As no one over at BF seems to worried about 1st shot hits at long engagement ranges Im beginning to think I nee to reassess my ww2 combat knowledge.

Similarly, Ive had a few Panzerschrek hits now at over 200 meters. Possibly lucky shots...


This isnt to say Im not liking the game, becuase I am. Its much better than CMAK in my opinion. Just lacking in depth right now.
 

ziploc

Recruit
Joined
May 15, 2011
Messages
7
Reaction score
1
Location
Plymouth
Country
ll
Similarly, Ive had a few Panzerschrek hits now at over 200 meters. Possibly lucky shots....
I've had that a few times in CMx1, normally preceeded by, "Pahh, he's got no chance of hitting me." Maybe I'll learn one day.
 
Last edited:

Michael Dorosh

der Spieß des Forums
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Feb 6, 2004
Messages
15,583
Reaction score
2,501
Location
Calgary, AB
First name
Michael
Country
llCanada
Due to days owing from Exercises I am actually off for the next few days. Ive played around with it all afternoon, but have yet to finish a game. Ive found the QB menus kind of frustrating in a stupid sort of way. Im also experiencing continued bewilderment at engagement ranges and 1st shot hits. I had an M5 score a 1st shot hit at 1520 meters on a Stug. Didnt hurt the thing but kind of strange as it doesnt seem to be a fluke. As no one over at BF seems to worried about 1st shot hits at long engagement ranges Im beginning to think I nee to reassess my ww2 combat knowledge.

Similarly, Ive had a few Panzerschrek hits now at over 200 meters. Possibly lucky shots...
There is an entire thread about the PSK at BFC. I never paid much attention to those threads, they always sound like sour grapes. The appeal of games like CM is that they have such a variance in the TO HIT and TO KILL chances. I guess if things are really 'too easy' there is a problem, if that's the suggestion, but rune answered early on in that thread a rationale for the long range of the Panzerschreck. That said, I have no dog in that particular fight.

An M5 Stuart scoring a hit at 1500 metres doesn't seem all that unusual, if it was stationary. I'd be more concerned if it scored a frontal kill, and then did it consistently. For me, outliers are part of the appeal. If you never got a fluke shot, there would be no reason to try them - and historically, desperate men tried poor shots all the time, because - also historically - sometimes, they worked.
 

Geordie

CM Moderator
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
2,111
Reaction score
13
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
An M5 Stuart scoring a hit at 1500 metres doesn't seem all that unusual, if it was stationary. I'd be more concerned if it scored a frontal kill, and then did it consistently. For me, outliers are part of the appeal. If you never got a fluke shot, there would be no reason to try them - and historically, desperate men tried poor shots all the time, because - also historically - sometimes, they worked.
Completely agree. But, Im seen quite a high incidence of 1st shot hits at various ranges. Close in its more than OK, but 800 meters plus and on moving targets is a tiny bit strange. Since no one else seems to really notice it though Im beginning to think its me and so Im shutting up about it for now.
 

BlitzCanuck

Pretend Command Sgt. Maj.
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Messages
228
Reaction score
5
Location
Great White North
Country
llCanada
Completely agree. But, Im seen quite a high incidence of 1st shot hits at various ranges. Close in its more than OK, but 800 meters plus and on moving targets is a tiny bit strange. Since no one else seems to really notice it though Im beginning to think its me and so Im shutting up about it for now.
It's not just you. I've had my Panthers turning, firing and killing moving Shermans several times now. After the first time it happened, i thought it was just lucky but now i think something is definitely wrong.
 

Geordie

CM Moderator
Joined
Jan 27, 2005
Messages
2,111
Reaction score
13
Location
Scotland
Country
llUnited Kingdom
BFC said theres nothing wrong with this, but Steve said that the reaction times after taking a hit needed to be looked at. Ive seen a Panther take two hits and fire back immediately so I think Steve is right there, the crew should at least be stunned a little...

I do think that quite rightly, stationer vehicles now have a slight advantage over the moving ones though.
 

Redwolf

Member # 3665
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
5,113
Reaction score
44
Location
MA, USA
Country
llUnited States
The question is whether the gunner had the range from previous shots. In CMx1 the model for zeroing in was almost entirely useless. In reality a gunner will very well remember how far away that point by that barn it and re-use it even if he had fired at other targets in between.

A target moving in a straight line at constant speed isn't too much of an issue either for an experienced gunner. Remember that distance and approximate speed are known. WW2 gun sights had markers to reproduce leads that you need at certain distances and speed.

I hope that the observed oddities are just people being shocked by a new realistic model of zeroing in and that it isn't screwed up first-shot hit probabilities.
 

mOBIUS

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
650
Reaction score
4
Location
Kalifornia
The Panther has a very accurate gun. If the crew is good it has a good chance of a first shot hit up to 1000 yds.
In theory it compares well to the T-62.
 

BlitzCanuck

Pretend Command Sgt. Maj.
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Messages
228
Reaction score
5
Location
Great White North
Country
llCanada
BFC said theres nothing wrong with this, but Steve said that the reaction times after taking a hit needed to be looked at. Ive seen a Panther take two hits and fire back immediately so I think Steve is right there, the crew should at least be stunned a little...

I do think that quite rightly, stationer vehicles now have a slight advantage over the moving ones though.
I think it's far more than a "slight" advantage.
 

Redwolf

Member # 3665
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
5,113
Reaction score
44
Location
MA, USA
Country
llUnited States
The Panther has a very accurate gun. If the crew is good it has a good chance of a first shot hit up to 1000 yds.
In theory it compares well to the T-62.
Do these charts assume that the gunners knows the range?

Of course the big advantage of the high-speed projectiles out of the L/70 is that range estimation errors can be bigger and you still hit. And a T-62 gun isn't quite that comparable since it has a smooth barrel (not rifled, so that you can shoot HEAT).

Overall this chart like garbage. Look at high high the probabilities are for 1000m. That doesn't match with any historical record. This probably does assume the range is known.
 

mOBIUS

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
650
Reaction score
4
Location
Kalifornia
Do these charts assume that the gunners knows the range?

Of course the big advantage of the high-speed projectiles out of the L/70 is that range estimation errors can be bigger and you still hit. And a T-62 gun isn't quite that comparable since it has a smooth barrel (not rifled, so that you can shoot HEAT).

Overall this chart like garbage. Look at high high the probabilities are for 1000m. That doesn't match with any historical record. This probably does assume the range is known.
The Panther does include a ranging error. 17.5% average ranging error or ~13% standard devation. Most 'historical' German accuracy actually is just a rote doubling of the gun dispersion. I don't know how Janes' figures the T-62 chances.
 

Redwolf

Member # 3665
Joined
Sep 2, 2002
Messages
5,113
Reaction score
44
Location
MA, USA
Country
llUnited States
There is no way to convince me that Panther has a 100% first(!) shot hit probability at 600 meters with no previous range measurements.
 

mOBIUS

Member
Joined
Apr 10, 2008
Messages
650
Reaction score
4
Location
Kalifornia
There is no way to convince me that Panther has a 100% first(!) shot hit probability at 600 meters with no previous range measurements.
The accuracy program only takes into account ranging error and gun dispersion. Human factors account for some % but there's no way to plot that. So when you get past 90% other factors like engine vibration and including the human factors of gun laying probably take over and reduced the % less than 100%.

Plus all the rocking the tank does each time if fires has to make the gunner sea sick as well as put their eye out.
 
Last edited:

BlitzCanuck

Pretend Command Sgt. Maj.
Joined
Aug 19, 2006
Messages
228
Reaction score
5
Location
Great White North
Country
llCanada
This Panther of mine is deadly! In the most recent turn, it took another Sherman and two M-10's with 3 shots.
They were stationary and in open terrain but this is still going to take some getting used to.
I wouldn't mind if someone would be willing to take a look at this turn and give me some feedback. Let me know and i can send you a link to the file in my dropbox folder.
 
Top