OBA Smoke in RB
- Thread starter Matt Book
- Start date
Will Fleming
Senior Member
Chapter A divider will let you know. Basically Germans get it, Russians don't unless specified otherwise.
Even for Red Barricades? I thought you only get smoke if you were allocated by SSR. I thought the Chapter A Divider only told you if they were Smoke Grenade capable.
Will Fleming
Senior Member
Sorry, NRBH, but unless specified by SSR, the nationality chart takes precedent. Germans get Smoke, but Russians don't (normally).
I don't have the divider and I don't really think it is in the rules, but the rules tell you to check the nationalities chart (Chap A or G).
[The A./G. National Capabilities Chart lists all the different MMC types (as well as their national capabilities) for all nationalities in both Chapter A and Chapter G.]
One of those 'capabilities' is OBA Smoke/SMOKE or lack thereof.
Edit: I think scenario designers took the initiative in general, so typically you will see it spelled out (HE/Smoke/SMOKE), but unless you specify something different than the norm, you don't have to specify and can rely on the nationalities chart.
Edit2: RB12 offers some help.
I don't have the divider and I don't really think it is in the rules, but the rules tell you to check the nationalities chart (Chap A or G).
[The A./G. National Capabilities Chart lists all the different MMC types (as well as their national capabilities) for all nationalities in both Chapter A and Chapter G.]
One of those 'capabilities' is OBA Smoke/SMOKE or lack thereof.
Edit: I think scenario designers took the initiative in general, so typically you will see it spelled out (HE/Smoke/SMOKE), but unless you specify something different than the norm, you don't have to specify and can rely on the nationalities chart.
Edit2: RB12 offers some help.
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jwb3
Just this guy, you know?
Huh.
Huh huh huh. Thought this was straightforward, but now...
It was always my understanding that the "Smoke" column on the Chapter A divider was referring only to smoke grenade capabilities. It was never my understanding that it applied to OBA smoke.
Oh, I see -- I just realized that the chart on the Chapter A divider is titled "A25 National Capabilities Chart". That means it is there to summarize / provide-quick-reference-for the various rules in Chapter A25. Those rules clearly state the smoke grenade capabilities of each nationality, and say nothing about OBA smoke (at least in my 1st edition ASLRB). Therefore, the "Smoke" column equals the "What kind of smoke grenades?" column.
The American section does specifically address the special Plentiful Ammo OBA rule... so if there were any special OBA Smoke rules for nationalities, they would be (probably) be in A25.
However, there is one specific SMOKE rule that isn't, which is A24.3:
"WP is a special form of SMOKE commonly available only to the U.S. player, although the British also have it commencing in 1944 (use by other nationalities is limited to SSR)."
Even here, the way the rule is written suggests that it only covers smoke grenades... However, C8.6 then refers OBA/ordnance WP effects back to A24.31-.32, so we know the effects go beyond smoke grenades. That doesn't mean A24.3 itself necessarily covers WP OBA availability, though!
The more I think about it, the more I think the ASLRB never actually covers the subject, and that's why SSRs handle it (if they're properly written... and if they aren't it generates a Q&A!).
Looking back at the SL rules, I see that the guiding principle was that any OBA could fire smoke. Every rule I looked at in the ASLRB seemed to imply that any OBA can fire Smoke, without saying it explicitly.
Sorry, but any further research would require more extensive rules-digging than I have time for tonight...
John
Huh huh huh. Thought this was straightforward, but now...
It was always my understanding that the "Smoke" column on the Chapter A divider was referring only to smoke grenade capabilities. It was never my understanding that it applied to OBA smoke.
Oh, I see -- I just realized that the chart on the Chapter A divider is titled "A25 National Capabilities Chart". That means it is there to summarize / provide-quick-reference-for the various rules in Chapter A25. Those rules clearly state the smoke grenade capabilities of each nationality, and say nothing about OBA smoke (at least in my 1st edition ASLRB). Therefore, the "Smoke" column equals the "What kind of smoke grenades?" column.
The American section does specifically address the special Plentiful Ammo OBA rule... so if there were any special OBA Smoke rules for nationalities, they would be (probably) be in A25.
However, there is one specific SMOKE rule that isn't, which is A24.3:
"WP is a special form of SMOKE commonly available only to the U.S. player, although the British also have it commencing in 1944 (use by other nationalities is limited to SSR)."
Even here, the way the rule is written suggests that it only covers smoke grenades... However, C8.6 then refers OBA/ordnance WP effects back to A24.31-.32, so we know the effects go beyond smoke grenades. That doesn't mean A24.3 itself necessarily covers WP OBA availability, though!
The more I think about it, the more I think the ASLRB never actually covers the subject, and that's why SSRs handle it (if they're properly written... and if they aren't it generates a Q&A!).
Looking back at the SL rules, I see that the guiding principle was that any OBA could fire smoke. Every rule I looked at in the ASLRB seemed to imply that any OBA can fire Smoke, without saying it explicitly.
Sorry, but any further research would require more extensive rules-digging than I have time for tonight...
John
Will Fleming
Senior Member
OK, dug through my aslml archive a bit. Here is a reply from Bruce P. but it is also in Scott R's excellent Q&A compilation. Learn something new every day. Thanks for asking the question.
Note: RB12 limits this somewhat, but I guess the Russians would have OBA Smoke in some cases.
RB12. For both sides: neither 150+mm OBA nor any Rocket OBA may fire Smoke; no OBA may fire WP; only MTR OBA and German 100+mm OBA may fire IR.
<snip>
The following seems to be on-point:
C1.7 a) In a scenario, can an OBA module ever use Smoke/SMOKE if not expressly
allowed, by SSR, to do so?
A. Yes.
b) If so, how does one determine whether or not Smoke/SMOKE is available to an
OBA module?
A. If the module is not restricted in the SSR and Smoke/SMOKE was available at
that time for that artillery, then assume it is available for the module.
c) How does one determine if "Smoke/SMOKE was available at that time for that
artillery"? For example, does German artillery never have Smoke (because there
is no such indication on the German OBA Availability Chart), or does it always
get it (because there exist German MTR and ART game pieces of 80+ to 150+ mm
size having depletable Smoke)?
A. German and Russian modules all have Smoke, unless the SSR specifically
mentions what is available.
d) For any nationality: need a player only find one game piece (or OBA
Availability Chart entry) of proper caliber, date, and depletable ammo type,
to claim a Smoke/SMOKE capability for an OBA module?
A. Unless the SSR specifically mentions what is available.
e) Looks to me like one may need to study all the following:
* Nationality OBA Availability Chart (if any)
* Nationality Ordnance Listing
* Nationality Ordnance Rarity Factor Chart (if any)
to determine capabilities of an OBA module. Is that correct?
A. Yes. Which is why SSRs of late have specified what is available. [Letter50]
50) Wayne Hadady to Perry Cocke and responses, posted to ASLML, April 2000
</snip>
Note: RB12 limits this somewhat, but I guess the Russians would have OBA Smoke in some cases.
RB12. For both sides: neither 150+mm OBA nor any Rocket OBA may fire Smoke; no OBA may fire WP; only MTR OBA and German 100+mm OBA may fire IR.
<snip>
The following seems to be on-point:
C1.7 a) In a scenario, can an OBA module ever use Smoke/SMOKE if not expressly
allowed, by SSR, to do so?
A. Yes.
b) If so, how does one determine whether or not Smoke/SMOKE is available to an
OBA module?
A. If the module is not restricted in the SSR and Smoke/SMOKE was available at
that time for that artillery, then assume it is available for the module.
c) How does one determine if "Smoke/SMOKE was available at that time for that
artillery"? For example, does German artillery never have Smoke (because there
is no such indication on the German OBA Availability Chart), or does it always
get it (because there exist German MTR and ART game pieces of 80+ to 150+ mm
size having depletable Smoke)?
A. German and Russian modules all have Smoke, unless the SSR specifically
mentions what is available.
d) For any nationality: need a player only find one game piece (or OBA
Availability Chart entry) of proper caliber, date, and depletable ammo type,
to claim a Smoke/SMOKE capability for an OBA module?
A. Unless the SSR specifically mentions what is available.
e) Looks to me like one may need to study all the following:
* Nationality OBA Availability Chart (if any)
* Nationality Ordnance Listing
* Nationality Ordnance Rarity Factor Chart (if any)
to determine capabilities of an OBA module. Is that correct?
A. Yes. Which is why SSRs of late have specified what is available. [Letter50]
50) Wayne Hadady to Perry Cocke and responses, posted to ASLML, April 2000
</snip>
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jwb3
Just this guy, you know?
Oh my gawd, what a cluster****.
Perry expects us to consider that an answer?!? It isn't even self-consistent...
...unless in his response to c) Perry is saying, "I already did the work for the Germans and Russians, and I found that they'll always get it."
We need a smilie for "Throws hands up in despair"!
John
Will Fleming
Senior Member
I was very surprised to see "Smoke Grenades" on the Nationality Chart. I think MMP should either incorporate OBA smoke on this chart or put it into the rules. Too much inconsistency.
That said, if you are going to be lazy, this letter at least 'works'.
That said, if you are going to be lazy, this letter at least 'works'.