OB designated concealment counter question

waltu

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2020
Messages
54
Reaction score
25
Location
New Jersey
Country
llUnited States
Is it allowed to put more than one OB-designated "?" counter on top of of a real unit? The idea being to deceive the opponent into thinking there might be a SW or leader (or both). How about within a stack, say one mid-stack and the other on top? I know you cannot combine OB-designated with Non-OB designated. Thanks.
 

von Marwitz

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 25, 2010
Messages
12,308
Reaction score
6,499
Location
Kraut Corner
Country
llGibraltar
Yes, you can put more than one OB-designated "?" counter on top of a real unit.
You can do the above and then place an unconcealed real unit on top of that, but in such case, the top unit could not 'grow' an extra concealment counter (i.e. unit, "?", unit would become unit, unit, "?" at game start if out of LOS and not unit, "?", unit, "?").

von Marwitz
 

waltu

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2020
Messages
54
Reaction score
25
Location
New Jersey
Country
llUnited States
OK, thanks. For some silly reason I didn't think that was allowed. I think I was admonished by an opponent for doing this early in my playing career. I've had that erroneous belief ever since.

The second situation makes sense. You cannot place a non-OB designated "?" above an OB-designated "?" counter, per A12.12. And leaving a real unit unconcealed on top of a stack containing dummy counters doesn't accomplish much anyway.
 

Robin Reeve

φιλέω ASL אני אוהב
Staff member
Moderator
Gold Supporting Member
Joined
Jul 26, 2003
Messages
17,607
Reaction score
2,969
Location
St-Légier
First name
Robin
Country
llSwitzerland
For the sake of rules reference, A12.1 states :
... No unit can be concealed more than once at any one time, although one or more Dummy counters (12.11) can be placed atop a unit(s). ...
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,245
Reaction score
2,964
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Just had to reply to another player that had the same type of question. My response to him to help him visualize the process is always consider the top most "?" counter as a concealment counter and any other "?" counters below that as Dummy "UNITS" wherever they may be arranged in the stack. One cannot put a concealment counter on top of another concealment counter in the same stack but if allowed to do so may place a "concealment counter" (i.e. generate another "?" counter) on top of UNITS (including Dummy Units) that move from a concealed stack and still retain concealed status.
 

waltu

Member
Joined
Apr 1, 2020
Messages
54
Reaction score
25
Location
New Jersey
Country
llUnited States
... but if allowed to do so may place a "concealment counter" (i.e. generate another "?" counter) on top of UNITS (including Dummy Units) that move from a concealed stack and still retain concealed status.
I remember some controversy a long time ago about growing concealment counters on dummy stacks that split apart. I think it had to do with trying to protect against snipers. I guess this technique could also be useful to deny concealment gain. Is this allowed?
 

EagleIV

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
981
Reaction score
228
Location
California
Country
llUnited States
I remember some controversy a long time ago about growing concealment counters on dummy stacks that split apart. I think it had to do with trying to protect against snipers. I guess this technique could also be useful to deny concealment gain. Is this allowed?
Yes when you split up a concealed stack of units you are allowed to add a concealment counter to the top of each stack. If you have a stack of 3 counters (which could be any combination of MMC/SMC/Dummies/SW (as long as there is a real unit possessing the SW before and after the split) that has a concealment counter on top (so there are a total of 4 counters in the stack) you can split it into 2 stacks (one stack of 1 counter and the other of 2 counters) each of which has an additional concealment counter on top.
 

lt_steiner

Member
Joined
Aug 25, 2012
Messages
57
Reaction score
30
Location
Paris
Country
llFrance
Yes when you split up a concealed stack of units you are allowed to add a concealment counter to the top of each stack. If you have a stack of 3 counters (which could be any combination of MMC/SMC/Dummies/SW (as long as there is a real unit possessing the SW before and after the split) that has a concealment counter on top (so there are a total of 4 counters in the stack) you can split it into 2 stacks (one stack of 1 counter and the other of 2 counters) each of which has an additional concealment counter on top.
So If I understand correctly,
a) a stack of 3 counters 4-5-7, a LMG, and a ? counter could split into 2 stacks a 4-5-7 and LMG with a new ? counter and a stack with the previous ? and an additional ?... That's strange. I guess only units can split and the previous ? counter is not a unit. So the stack is not allowed to split.

b) a stack with 2 MMC, one possessed SW and a ? on top. The stack could split in 2 stacks. First a stack with one MMC and the previous ? counter with above it a new ? counter and a stack with MMC and SW which gains a new ? as well. (So the stack with 4 counters splits in 2 stacks of 3 counters.)?
 

The Purist

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 16, 2004
Messages
2,845
Reaction score
1,334
Location
In my castle by the sea, Trochu, AB
First name
Gerry
Country
llCanada
Not quite.

A stack of 2 squads with ? can split into 2 stacks of 1 squad and 1 ? If they come together in the saqme hex again, one of the ? must be removed.

A dummy stack (ie: 3 ? counters) hopefully looking like 2 concealed squads, could split into 2 stacks of 2 ? counters. However, If the stack comes together again they may only have 3 ? counters.

In other words,... you cannot use the splitting of dummy stacks to 'grow' more dummies.

Cheers.
 
Last edited:

EagleIV

Member
Joined
Jan 3, 2008
Messages
981
Reaction score
228
Location
California
Country
llUnited States
So If I understand correctly,
a) a stack of 3 counters 4-5-7, a LMG, and a ? counter could split into 2 stacks a 4-5-7 and LMG with a new ? counter and a stack with the previous ? and an additional ?... That's strange. I guess only units can split and the previous ? counter is not a unit. So the stack is not allowed to split.

b) a stack with 2 MMC, one possessed SW and a ? on top. The stack could split in 2 stacks. First a stack with one MMC and the previous ? counter with above it a new ? counter and a stack with MMC and SW which gains a new ? as well. (So the stack with 4 counters splits in 2 stacks of 3 counters.)?
I think you misunderstood my point, in case b you should have 1 stack of 2 counters and 1 stack of 3 counters. You have a stack of 3 concealed counters (4 counters counting the ? on top). After the split you have 2 stacks, one with 2 concealed counters plus a ? on top, the other with 1 concealed counter plus a ? on top. What the 3 concealed counters are doesn't matter (as long as you don't have an unpossessed SW).
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
5,245
Reaction score
2,964
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Yes when you split up a concealed stack of units you are allowed to add a concealment counter to the top of each stack. If you have a stack of 3 counters (which could be any combination of MMC/SMC/Dummies/SW (as long as there is a real unit possessing the SW before and after the split) that has a concealment counter on top (so there are a total of 4 counters in the stack) you can split it into 2 stacks (one stack of 1 counter and the other of 2 counters) each of which has an additional concealment counter on top.
Almost but an actual non-dummy unit is not necessary in a stack to allow it to split. In a single stack there is only one concealment counter, the top most one, all other "?" counters are dummy units ( Unit: Any game piece or Counter with its own MF/MP allotment and normally capable of movement without being portaged, pushed, or towed. Infantry, Cavalry [but not Horses], Dummy stacks, and vehicles (even IF Immobilized) are all different types of units). As long as one dummy unit is capable of splitting from a concealed stack it may move independently from the stack and if allowed otherwise may "grow" its own concealment counter. If combined with another concealed stack the excess concealment counter is removed because there can only be a single concealment counter in a stack. When explaining this to people coming into ASL I find it better to call "?" counters either a Concealment Counter or Dummy Counter by virtue of their placement order in a single stack to alleviate confusion arrived at by calling them all by one designation.
 
Top