O5.43 EX #2 Squad I (non) LOS to squad C

Swiftandsure

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Hi all,
I am trying to (re)learn RB (now RF) Factory LOS rules - which I always had some difficulty to grasp on some of their aspects...
I am trying to understand why, in the O5.43 EX #2 on page O5, why the squad I has no LOS to squad C.
Squad I is higher than the Interior walls, so the Interior wall vertices (J17-K17-K18 and K16-L15-L16) should not block LOS per 5.31 (cf. Squad F vs squad H example).
Squad C is on the first roofed Factory hex, so that shouldn't prevent LOS either.
The rooftop artwork extending in Roofless Factory hexes has no effect on LOS (5.43).

What aspect of the rule am I missing (I have the impression that ot is when walls block LOS or not from a higher Location)?7751
 
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clubby

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C is on the hexspine, so I believe they catch the roof in J17.
 

clubby

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But wait, is C really in the last roof factory hex right down the hexpsine with the roof in J17? If that's true i guess I'm missing something.
 

Eagle4ty

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As would the J17-K18 roof I believe as the hex-spine is still considered part of J17 at rooftop level.

[EDIT] I think the "overdraw" of the roof depiction just helps reinforce this aspect (much as the overdraw of rubble helps in reinforcing the rubble exits throughout the hex including hex-spines and hex-sides).
 

clubby

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Interesting conundrum, blows my theory out of the water (as well as Klas' I believe)!
...is clear since the viewing unit is at a level ≥ the top of the Interior Factory Wall hexside it is viewing along (O5.31).
 

Eagle4ty

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...is clear since the viewing unit is at a level ≥ the top of the Interior Factory Wall hexside it is viewing along (O5.31).
One would think the interior wall would reach to the same height as the roof (perhaps marginally below, but certainly not a level) thus blocking the LOS from F-H, that one's got me. Would be willing to buy off on it but I would think it brings up an exact situation that SwiftandSure is concerned with: exactly what is the standard?
 

clubby

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Right out of the ASLRB. I see the thinking, a unit on the roof could see over a hexside interior wall if they were in that hex, but I agree that it doesn't make the visual any easier when the wall is on the hexspine directly between two units. I guess you could say they're not behind the wall down there but milling around it. LOL
 

Swiftandsure

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Ah yes.
But it is not the case for F vs H, where the example says LOS exists.
That is what leads me to be slightly confused : if the LOS is along an Interior wall hexside (and that hexside has one of its vertices belonging to the lower unit's hex) there doesn't seem to be a blind hex.
I don't find the rule easy to understand - but that is perhaps just me.
 

ColinJ

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Regarding the negation of the factory wall in the F vs H LOS.
The only thing I can see that makes the LOS work, and avoid the blind hex problems, is the factory wall effect is negated along the hex-spine due to the K16 being a roofless factory hex. The LOS is then treated as per along a cliff, as per 5.43, thus negating the effect of the factory wall.

Colin
 

Swiftandsure

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O5.31 says that an Interior wall blocks fire "along/across" it unless the firer is at the same or higher level than its top (which corresponds to the situation of firers on the rooftop).
But that it can create a blind hex.
The problem is that H is at 2 hexes from H and directly behind the Interior wall hexside: the blind hex effect should trump the LOS from same or higher than the top of the Interior Wall effect.
The cliff analogy could indeed be the key to the problem.
LOS along a cliff wouldn't create a blind hex, but crossing it, it does.
However I also note that C is said not to have LOS to rooftop unit N, because of Interior Wall hexside K18-K19 (which is part of neither of the hexes of those units)... the blind hex effect is not possible in this case, so why cannot the LOS from unit N not be allowed across that Interior Wall?

I admit that I am at a loss about how Interior Walls have an effect upon LOS from rooftop units vs. ground level ones.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I think that the requirement that "firer is at the same or higher level than its top" is just the basic needed requirement to possibly see over same height obstacles. E.g., a unit on Level 1 can see over a Level 1 buildling to other Level 1 (and above Locations), and a unit on Level 1.5 can see over a Level 1 buildling to other Level 1 (and above Locations), and also possibly to other Level 0 Locations "behind" the Level 1 building. I.e., the basic concept of LOS over obstacles.
 

klasmalmstrom

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The cliff analogy could indeed be the key to the problem.
I think it is.

O5.43:
"...For game purposes, the dark jagged artwork delineating the interior edge of the roof acts like a hill Crest Line (B10.2); however, LOS may be traced directly long such a hexside (even if also an Factory Interior Wall hexside) just as if tracing it along a cliff hexside (B11.2)..."

What is slightly confusing the example when it says for Squad F:
"...Its LOS to squad H is clear since the viewing unit is at a level ≥ the top of the Factory Interior Wall hexside it is viewing along (5.31)."

when it only refers to O5.41 and not to O5.43 as well..
 

Swiftandsure

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I think that the requirement that "firer is at the same or higher level than its top" is just the basic needed requirement to possibly see over same height obstacles. E.g., a unit on Level 1 can see over a Level 1 buildling to other Level 1 (and above Locations), and a unit on Level 1.5 can see over a Level 1 buildling to other Level 1 (and above Locations), and also possibly to other Level 0 Locations "behind" the Level 1 building. I.e., the basic concept of LOS over obstacles.
So, to sum up:
- a firer on a rooftop doesn't have LOS across an Interior Wall of the same height to a unit at a lower level - excepted if the LOS is along an Interior Wall hexside.
If the firer is higher than the Interior Wall (e.g. on a rooftop of a 2.5 level building and the Interior Wall) LOS exists, but a blind hex (or more than one) can exist.
Things are getting clearer if I hopefully have understood correctly.
 

Eagle4ty

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So, to sum up:
- a firer on a rooftop doesn't have LOS across an Interior Wall of the same height to a unit at a lower level - excepted if the LOS is along an Interior Wall hexside.
If the firer is higher than the Interior Wall (e.g. on a rooftop of a 2.5 level building and the Interior Wall) LOS exists, but a blind hex (or more than one) can exist.
Things are getting clearer if I hopefully have understood correctly.
Clear as mud to me, but the silt does seem to be filtering out.
 

clubby

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However I also note that C is said not to have LOS to rooftop unit N, because of Interior Wall hexside K18-K19 (which is part of neither of the hexes of those units)... the blind hex effect is not possible in this case, so why cannot the LOS from unit N not be allowed across that Interior Wall?

I admit that I am at a loss about how Interior Walls have an effect upon LOS from rooftop units vs. ground level ones.
I believe that interior wall would have to be located in the same hex as N for them to have LOS over it. Like standing on the edge of a cliff or standing one hex back from the edge.
 

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Ladies and gentlemen, the ASL Talmud in action.
:)
 
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