Non-historical scenarios

pward

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Can someone tell me if there are any scenarios out there that aren't based on some historical action?
I can't recall any that didn't have a situation and aftermath from some real engagement, but haven't seen enough scenarios to be considered an expert.

OOPS, wrong forum, can this be moved to the general ASL forum from VASL?
 
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Somewhere a remake was done on that COD capturing a queen scenario. Somewhere (on-line) is a scenario pack of hypothetical invasion of England '40 scenarios. There was a Hogan's Heroes scenario (can't remember from which pack -- online I think). And there was a 'funny' invasion of Mars scenario using a goliath (I think) as a Martian probe encountering Aliens (I think it was in one of the Annuals, can't remember now, it was a solitaire scenario). There were a few other Hypothetical scenarios, I think, in that same Hogan's Heroes pack (Pretty sure it was a non-historical pack, but my memory isn't that great). Those are the only ones I'm aware of right off-hand. I do remember reading somewhere (one of the CHs I think) that one of the Brit tourneys featured a scenario where everyone got like 5 SMCS and had to exit opposite sides of the board configuration (don't know if it was made into a scenario or if it was just a tourney-only kind of thing).
 
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Dr Zaius

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I know for certain there are scenarios out there that were designed first and "fitted" to a historical situation after the fact. The Wolves' Last Tooth (Melee Pack I) by Bryan Earll is one example of this, and I suspect it is more common than people realize. There is an article about this in the Feb 2003, Vol8/1 issue of Hit the Beach!http://65.214.181.254/pdfs/V8N1.pdf
 

olli

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There were also a set of 4 ALTERNATIVE history scenarios, got them tucked away in one of my folders, not scanned yet. Occidental Tourist, Guerillas in the mist, one based on the american invasion of Canada and cannot remember the 4th - anyone. They may be available on the aslwebdex site.Also Klaus Fischer has two larger ones on his site
Regards Olli
 

SamB

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Many players (Curt Schilling among them, I think) are insistant that scenarios represent specific actions. There are very few that are not tied to a particular historical action in some form.

That said, I wouldn't mind at all scenarios that are representative of the actions of a particular period. For example, after the breakout from Normandy in 1944 - the pursuit across France - there were numerous actions where rear guards delayed the allied advance. I'd have no problem with a group of scenarios that presented "realistic" engagements that represent these actions. By realistic, I mean reasonable force mix, probably no King Tigers vs Pershing...

Sam
 

ross

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some what if scenarios about Midway...

pward said:
Can someone tell me if there are any scenarios out there that aren't based on some historical action?
I can't recall any that didn't have a situation and aftermath from some real engagement, but haven't seen enough scenarios to be considered an expert.
Check out these four Midway scenarios from this website:

http://www.singlemanpublishing.com/Midway/midway.htm

Here's a blurb about the action:
What if the Japanese had defeated the US Navy during the Battle of Midway? In reality a smashing victory for the USN, but anyone that knows the story also knows that victory turned on the razor's edge that day. What if the Japanese had won . . .
 

Chas

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I am pretty insistent on designing on historical situations. However, back a few years when I saw Klaus' "HASL" I was almost ready to get that baby going. The map, although not based on actual terrain, did a very good job of representing industrialized area near a city. Of course, the scenarios he had for it were completely made up. The map itself made me want to design on it though:)

I tend to get turned off by scenarios that have ridiculous historical flaws in them. Maybe it is because I try and hold a high standard when I design, and it is sort of pet peeve when others dont do the same.
Even though I say this, I am sure scenarios not based on historical data could be just as fun as those that are.

Chas
 

Tater

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SamB said:
Many players (Curt Schilling among them, I think) are insistant that scenarios represent specific actions.
Yep, which is a fairly silly position to take given that even the most historically accurate ASL scenario is at best a very limited approximation of the action named.

It also, IMNSHO, has lead to the publication of some yawner scenarios/CGs. It appears that the more a designer moves towards historical accuracy the further he moves away from the fun factor. Case in point being RB...RB is probably the must ahistorical of all the CG...yet it is by far the most popular. On the other end of the spectrum we have KGP which is possibly one of the most historically accurate CG's yet it rates as one of the least popular.
 

robarrieta

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While I am more in the historical scenario "camp", I wonder really how accurate can you get? Are most scenarios researched from sources which contained detailed, squad based actions? And are most OOB's really accurate?

I have a hard time thinking of sources which contain this level of detail. One exception is the AWESOME book, "Hell's Gate" by Douglas Nash based on the Soviet-German battle of the Korsun Pocket in Feb '44. This book has very detailed squad and platoon-level AAR's which would be ideally suited for translation into ASL scenarios. As a matter of fact, a HASL CG on the Korsun Pocket would be cool...
 

Johnny Canuck

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"Many players (Curt Schilling among them, I think) are insistant that scenarios represent specific actions."

I'll give the purists a pass thanks.
 

da priest

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Tater said:
Yep, which is a fairly silly position to take given that even the most historically accurate ASL scenario is at best a very limited approximation of the action named.....
So ya'll would rather play M:tG scenarios?

Might as well have wizards and mages.....:devil:
 

SamB

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I'm not suggesting M:TG scenarios... Just that it would be OK in my book if we had scenarios that were representative of actions that actually happened, but were not especially linked to one particular action.

Battle of the bulge: You are defending a cross roads, (0r you are attacking ...) The pursuit across France - a rapidly moving column vs a "rear guard" unit.

OTOH, if you insist on Historical linkage, that's OK by me. Whatever floats your boat. But can't we have more scenarios? Do they have to be "accurate"? Can't they just be "reasonable"?

Sam
 

Dr Zaius

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It's already that way to some extent whether people know it or want to accept it. There are some actions that were very well documented down to the squad level, however, these are certainly a rarity. The vast majority of WWII history is written from a much broader point of view. This is particularly true of actions on the Eastern Front.

There are what, something like 3,500 ASL scenarios out there? I would like to see the data produced for a lot of these scenarios based on actions in the east. While it can be done in some cases, that type of detail simply does not exist for many battles. So designers research what they can and then make some sound judgments about what the battle looked like at the individual squad level. In most cases these abstractions are reasonably representative of the action, which is about as much as can be asked. If the data is available at all, and if doing exhaustive research actually helps the designer craft a more interesting tactical situation--then I'm all for it! And this applies to any wargame. However, there are plenty of scenarios out there that are only very loose approximations of what actually took place, but they are still good scenarios.

And bear in mind that even the most fanatically researched situation is only "historical" until the first die is cast. After that...
 

Pitman

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To me, "representational" scenarios (defend the generic crossroads, etc.) just reflects a lazy designer.
 

Tater

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Pitman said:
To me, "representational" scenarios (defend the generic crossroads, etc.) just reflects a lazy designer.
Oh, that's great...so some guy isn't anal about historical accuracy and you got to insult him..."well, your just lazy!!!"

Maybe it just reflects someone with a different interest level than you...or someone with a different idea for what is fun...or maybe it is someone who doesn't want to spend 10 years designing the most boring scenario in ASL history...naaaaa...couldn't be, because the Pitman has prounounced it so.
 

Tater

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Don Maddox said:
It's already that way to some extent whether people know it or want to accept it. There are some actions that were very well documented down to the squad level, however, these are certainly a rarity. The vast majority of WWII history is written from a much broader point of view. This is particularly true of actions on the Eastern Front.

There are what, something like 3,500 ASL scenarios out there? I would like to see the data produced for a lot of these scenarios based on actions in the east. While it can be done in some cases, that type of detail simply does not exist for many battles. So designers research what they can and then make some sound judgments about what the battle looked like at the individual squad level. In most cases these abstractions are reasonably representative of the action, which is about as much as can be asked. If the data is available at all, and if doing exhaustive research actually helps the designer craft a more interesting tactical situation--then I'm all for it! And this applies to any wargame. However, there are plenty of scenarios out there that are only very loose approximations of what actually took place, but they are still good scenarios.

And bear in mind that even the most fanatically researched situation is only "historical" until the first die is cast. After that...
Well, according to The Pitman their all just a bunch of lazy SOB's!!!
 

Ole Boe

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Pitman said:
To me, "representational" scenarios (defend the generic crossroads, etc.) just reflects a lazy designer.
I don't think you know what you're talking about Mark. Ola Nygårds is a good friend of mine, and I know how hard and much he has worked on his scenario designs, but his focus has not been on making them realistic on a detailed level, but rather to make fun and balanced scenarios that are a blast to play. If you read the historical settings on his scenarios, you'll easily see that they're pretty "representational" in their design - not because he is lazy, but because he doesn't think the detailed level is necessary for a good scenario.

And judging by how his designs are received, I think he succeeded very well - his two first published scenarios are the two most played scenarios this year according to ROAR.

Now, don't get me wrong - I don't think that historical accuracy is wrong. I appreciate the work you and others are doing on scenarios/historical modules to make them as historical accurate as possible. But that doesn't necessarily make the scenarios/CGs better.

I agree with Tate - RB is the best CG by far, and part of the reason is the lack of historical accuracy in the CG regarding how much and what you can buy and where they can enter.
 

'Ol Fezziwig

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One of the best, if somewhat large, 'semi-historical' scenarios is The Mighty Maus by dftb. Including not one but -two- Maus, IS-3s, IS-2ms, King Tigers and enough heavy metal to leave rust on your fingertips, it's just good, crazy ASL action. The historicity or lack thereof played no factor in my enjoyment of this scenario. The point of sitting down to an ASL scenario is the fun factor, not whether or not I consider it to be a mini historical dissertation.

That being said, I would hope that something purporting to be 'HASL' to have more substance along the historical lines, even though I think the HASLs, ironically, end up playing perhaps the most ahistorical of all.
 

rdw5150

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I would have to agree with those whom have said that RB, while it is not all the historical, it is *fun* that that is why we are playing.

To me at least, scenarios do not need to be completely historical, after all it is a game we are playing and is not meant to be a *study* of history.

If someone like Mark wants to put in the time and effort to put out a scenario pack which is historically accurate, great, I may even gain an interest in the action and read a book or two on the subject.

Then again, if someone else wants to put out a pack with more "generic" actions, but are great fun to play, I am all for that as well (and I do not think the designers are being lazy btw).

I like 'em all :laugh:

Peace

Roger
 
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