NKVD Strongpoint Question VotG

JimWhite

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Not that this will help much...:)

But my long-time CG opponent and I have wondered about this very question over the years. Since we have never found any concrete answer...we just play it as they can move from F37 to G37 (as well as F38 to G39).

But we are willing to have our minds changed...:D
 

Gordon

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Oh no, not a another stone-cold pun thread hijack ...
 

JimWhite

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10697

vM will be here all week...don't forget to tip your servers.
 

von Marwitz

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VOTG NKVD Strongpoint Can Russian move from F37 to G37? Source?
To help everybody visualize:

10699

I think yes.

CG11: RUSSIAN FANATIC STRONGPOINTS: 12 Each non-prisoner Russian Personnel unit in a Fanatic Strongpoint Location [EXC: if in a Sewer Location, or if currently in Bypass], is considered Fanatic (A10.8) and is immune to the effects of Encirclement (A7.7). If entering from outside the Fanatic Strongpoint it becomes Fanatic immediately, prior to all Defensive First Fire against it. If wishing to advance out of a Fanatic Strongpoint Location in order to CC an AFV, it need not take a PAATC since it is Fanatic when required to take it. A Russian unit already Fanatic receives no further Morale benefit. All non-rubbled ground-level Locations of a Fanatic Strongpoint must be fortified building Locations. Rubble occurring in an original Fanatic Strongpoint hex is still considered part of that Fanatic Strongpoint for purposes of this rule. Russian personnel in Fanatic Strongpoints receive a -1 HOB DRM, and an additional -1 HOB DRM if the Fanatic Strongpoint currently has a Good Order Commissar in any Location; both are cumulative.

It appears to me that ruleswise the Fanatic Strongpoints are about Locations rather than building depictions. This impression is reinforced by the fact that a rubbled Fanatic Strongpoint is still considered part of that strongpoint.

von Marwitz
 
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aloha_brian

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I've asked Tom for to weigh in on the question. Per Tom moving from F37 to G38 across the open ground hexside is a legal move for a NKVD strongpoint. I put the response in the VoTG folder.
Brian
 

R Hooks

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My best understanding of the battle is that the Russians had a 76 AT gun outside the building but between f37 g37 which knocked out a number of German Stug's. Not sure if guns can be in bypass.
 

Eagle4ty

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My best understanding of the battle is that the Russians had a 76 AT gun outside the building but between f37 g37 which knocked out a number of German Stug's. Not sure if guns can be in bypass.
Similar situation with The Commissar's House in the Red Barricades District. As per emplaced Guns set up in bypass, I pretty sure the answer is no (but hey, I've certainly been wrong before).
 
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von Marwitz

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Not sure if guns can be in bypass.
They cannot.
It is not allowed to voluntarily end the MPh in Bypass for Infantry (i.e. the Crew). Furthermore, Guns cannot be Pushed in Bypass.

A4.32 BROKEN IN BYPASS: Infantry that voluntarily ends its MPh in an obstacle hex must pay the full MF cost of that obstacle unless it entered at the road movement rate (4.132); Infantry may not voluntarily end its move using Bypass. If the unit breaks while using Bypass, it remains in the open portion of the obstacle hex until the end of its MPh and is subject to the FFNAM (and usually also FFMO) DRM for multi-hex movement in the open for additional First Fire attacks made against it to or through the hexsides it traversed during that MPh. The broken unit and all portaged equipment are assumed to be in the obstacle during and after Final Fire.

Infantry (all SMC & MMC counters on foot; i.e., not mounted as Cavalry or PRC): Chapter A [DYO: H1.2-.28, H1.7-.73]

C10.3 PUSHING: A limbered or QSU Gun [EXC: if having NM or RFNM] can conceivably be pushed (and simultaneously have its CA changed) during the MPh by a Good Order crew (as per 10.111) at double its normal MF cost, provided it makes a Final DR ≤ its M#/M$(b) for each hex it attempts to enter. Pushing a Gun (i.e., making a Manhandling DR) is Hazardous Movement, prevents Assault Movement, and cannot be attempted while carrying PP, or moving beneath a Wire/Panji counter, or attempting a Minimum Move. Double Time can be used, but the road bonus MF (B3.4) cannot. A Gun cannot be pushed INTO a deep stream or into Bamboo (G3.2) [EXC: via TB]. A Gun cannot be pushed using Bypass, nor can it be hooked up to or unhooked from a vehicle in Bypass. If the Final Manhandling DR is > the M#, neither the Gun nor any pushing unit(s) can be moved farther during that MPh but the pushing unit(s) receives a -1 Labor counter for use in its next attempt. If the Final Manhandling DR equals the M#, the Gun and pushing unit(s) can enter that hex but cannot be moved any farther during that MPh. If the Final Manhandling DR is < the M#, the Gun can enter that hex and either attempt to be pushed another hex or can be hooked up (see 10.31), provided all the Infantry which has engaged in pushing during that Player Turn have sufficient MF left to expend in that hex. In all three cases, the Gun and its pushing Infantry become TI for the rest of that Player Turn when their pushing/hooking up has ended. These rules do not apply to SW portage. See B23.423, B23.85, B23.93 and 2.7 for pushing Guns into a building (B30.45 for pillbox). A Gun may not be pushed during the same Player Turn in which it is unhooked.


von Marwitz
 
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