Nice try Geordie, but we're finished

Michael Dorosh

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http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=84850

Love this response:

Have faith..they are the same guys that deconstructed our wonderful cherry picking QB system for the sake of realism remember?..just kidding But really there is no indication that they wont pay attention to historical accuracy. CMSF is based on a fictional conflict and yet we mostly get down to earth MOUT and asymmetrical warfare. I think Steve even mentioned that Tigers might not make it in the first release for historical reasons. Modules will be quite strict in time periods and equipment anyway.
This is the same "realistic" urban warfare modeling that doesn't have actual weapons drills ("controlled pairs" when firing at targets (i.e. the old double tap), or room clearing drills (or rooms for that matter), or the ability to attack from the roof down, or scaling ladders, or even the ability for insurgents to jump out a window.

Yeah.

Have faith, buddy!
 

[hirr]Leto

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http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=84850

Love this response:



This is the same "realistic" urban warfare modeling that doesn't have actual weapons drills ("controlled pairs" when firing at targets (i.e. the old double tap), or room clearing drills (or rooms for that matter), or the ability to attack from the roof down, or scaling ladders, or even the ability for insurgents to jump out a window.

Yeah.

Have faith, buddy!

Quoth the Dorosh: "NEVERMORE".

Cheers!

Leto
 

Redwolf

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This is really a minor detail.

The scenario designer can choose not to put in vehicle <X> if it wasn't available.

I never understood why some users/customers would actively oppose putting in vehicles that existed at the time just not in the right place. That's stupid.

Also, Panzer Lehr had pretty much everything anyway.
 

Palantir

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Did BFC actually say they were not including "D-Day" action in their CM-Normandy release? If so that just makes it "CMBO: 2009 Update."

Also- they can throw in King-Tigers & V-2 Rockets as far as I care as long as the historical dates match their in-game appearances.


However, if it's just still CM:SF with WW2 "figures" played in RT and 1:1 scale I won't be buying it.


I'm surprised that after giving us all the long hoped for USA vs. Syria war-game that the WW2 version didn't first focus on that often dreamed of "Operation Anvil" game. (Just to work out those WW2 Beta-game kinks before moving on to the same old boring WW2 action spots.)
 
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Michael Dorosh

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I agree with the notion of the more flexibility the better - I liked that you could play in the editor of CMX1 and put stuff from Dec 1944 into June if you wanted to, or drop American paratroopers onto Crete if it floated your boat.

I think the concern is probably unwarranted; BFC will likely go the opposite way and wring us dry for every additional piece of equipment or unit type. Expect vanilla for the first release. The Panther was a better tank than the Tiger in every respect anyway - twice the frontal armour, at any rate, and more common since it deployed as a "medium" tank in the panzer divisions instead of a heavy tank in special armour battalions.

Still going to need "asymmetric" victory conditions since we all know every game is going to be armour-heavy, which is the way of tactical squad-based company-level games, and the German armour was king. Plus that terrain - if they really do model bocage faithfully.

There isn't enough for the infantry to do, that's always been my mantra with Combat Mission. To make an interesting game, you need choices and decision trees, and Steve has consistently been saying he wants to keep a lean interface. You have to, really, because of the Real Time. So instead of loading down the game with real life options for the infantry, like you get in ASL - clear roadblock, use explosives, mousehole through a rowhouse, split into teams, break off into pairs and mop up a building, send a scout up into the steeple of a church, swim across a river, clear a wire obstacle, dig a shellscrape, deliberately dash across a road as a squad to minimize exposure, push a stuck jeep out of a muddy ditch, interrogate a POW for local intel on hidden enemy units, scrounge ammunition, climb a cliff - you get half a dozen options that the AI performs poorly, without benefit of triggers.
 

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Kerry--I read over on the Battlefront forum that no invasion stuff is to be included. Perhaps they will include the US paras, as that is not different than other action away from the beaches.

CM: Normandy I will be far less than CMBO 2. It will include only about 1/3rd the time frame (essentially the summer of 1944) and only the Germans and US within that time frame. It is a company scale game--so it's smaller. It will also be interesting to see how much less it will have with regard to terrain and defensive position toys.

We'll see how well Battlefront keeps its word that WeGo is to be an equal partner (and supposedly already is in CMSF/Marines) with RT.

I'll leave it to you experts to tell me about the editor.
 
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Michael Dorosh

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Kerry--I read over on the Battlefront forum that no invasion stuff is to be included. Perhaps they will include the US paras, as that is not different than other action away from the beaches.

CM: Normandy I will be far less than CMBO 2. It will include only about 1/3rd the time frame (essentially the summer of 1944) and only the Germans and US within that time frame. It is a company scale game--so it's smaller. It will also be interesting to see how much less it will have with regard to terrain and defensive position toys.

We'll see how well Battlefront keeps its word that WeGo is to be an equal partner (and supposedly already is in CMSF/Marines) with RT.

I'll leave it to you experts to tell be about the editor.
I expect there will be no snow, which will be the big difference from CM:BO as far as not being able to model the Ardennes, etc. You may have the right hardware, and be able to fudge the terrain, but the weather effects won't be there.

Steve just posted a semi-lengthy reply on his forum to say the first "family" of WW II titles will be June to September only.

If you want post-September, you will have to buy a completely new game from them.

I don't recall if that means they will be compatible or not - i.e. if we can import units from Normandy into Shock Force, for example, the way that Panzer Command: Operation Winter Storm and Panzer Command: Kharkov are interchangeable.
 

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Here's what Steve said tonight at the Battlefront forum:

"The timeframe for the first Family of WW2 games is June-September 1944, which means it covers pretty much everything up until the Allied "pause" along the German frontier. The second Family of WW2 games picks up from there and goes until the end of the war.

As for sticking to realism, we're definitely going to keep at it for a while. But unlike CMx1, the Module concept allows us the flexibility to break that if we think there's a viable market for the end product. Yes, I'm talking about things like the Maus I've already hinted at this before so this is nothing new.

It is true that the US didn't run up against many of the "fun" things until after the conclusion of the Normandy campaign. However, we will definitely have Tigers and some SS formations in the game. Ahistorical? Technically no because there actually was very limited contact between US and SS formations with Tigers. But the thought of having a WWII game without Tigers in it... I'm pretty sure that's against the Geneva Convention or somefink

The 1st Module, which features Commonwealth forces, will have a ton of new German stuff in it as well as our pale tea drinking friends from the wee little island off the coast of Normandy. As with CM:SF, all Modules will work transparently with each other. Which means you can match up US forces against Porche turreted King Tigers, for example, once you get the Commonwealth Module.

Steve"

Link to page with his post #13:

http://www.battlefront.com/community/showthread.php?t=84850&page=2

It is all but 100% certain that each Family of CM Games will stand alone and not be melded into other families. Off course the modules you might buy will enhance your version of each "family". I take this not just from today's post, but from the long discussion on the subject about 40 days ago. I posted a summary of it at KG here:

http://www.kampfgruppe.us/showthread.php?t=6530
 

Geordie

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This is really a minor detail.

The scenario designer can choose not to put in vehicle <X> if it wasn't available.

I never understood why some users/customers would actively oppose putting in vehicles that existed at the time just not in the right place. That's stupid.

Also, Panzer Lehr had pretty much everything anyway.
This would be the same Panzer Lehr that faced the Brits for the vast majority of the Normandy campaign and the broken shadow of which went into action against the US?
 

Geordie

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Reading between Steves lines I foresee SS and Tigers taken in its Ahistorical context, that is, throwing history out with the bathwater in order to portay that the US faced the SS and the Tigers from day 3!

As a Brit, I find this a part of the continuing erosion of the Brit and Commonwealth contribution to Normandy and the war at hand. The Commonwealth faced the vast majority of the panzer Divs for a long time but thats not sexy for the US market.

I know, its only a game and I want to see the SS and Tigers too, but every little thing adds up. As I read somewhere, where does this revisionism end? Do American bowmen carry out the decisive act at Agincourt?
 

Michael Dorosh

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Ok, I start to see where you're coming from, Geordie. I wonder if they won't concentrate more on U.S. paratroop actions and ease your concerns some. They're "elite" and they can feed on the Band of Brothers and Brothers in Arms buzz without using SS and Tigers.

But it would depend on strong infantry modeling and interesting scenarios. hmmm....
 

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I still don't get why kicking out periodically correct units makes the game worse. Don't use them if you don't like them.

We have bigger fish to fry here.
 

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I still don't get why kicking out periodically correct units makes the game worse. Don't use them if you don't like them.

We have bigger fish to fry here.
Agreed--there's nothing wrong with being able to play/create a "what if" game or a fictional encounter. If that's not your cup of tea--just pass it by. More options in the game is better. Less is just that...less.
 

jwb3

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Did BFC actually say they were not including "D-Day" action in their CM-Normandy release?
Why does this surprise you? They didn't include any D-Day action in the original CMBO... and in CMx2 they can't even be bothered to get trenches right. Can you really see them being bothered to try to model landing craft on this go-round?

Heck, we'll be lucky if they even include assault boats for river crossings.


I still don't get why kicking out periodically correct units makes the game worse. Don't use them if you don't like them.

We have bigger fish to fry here.
You keep saying that, but I just don't see it. From what I've seen, "we" here on this forum don't have any say, or sway, whatsoever in how BFC will handle WWII CMx2. Most of "us" have already reached the stage where if we say it, Steve automatically will think it must be wrong -- and while I'm not in that boat myself, never having been a member on the BFC forums, I've gotten far too clear an idea of how things work over there to bother wasting time trying to knock some sense into them.

So, we've got no fish, we've got no frying pan, and we've got no fuel to keep the fire going.

All that leaves us is a lot of carping. :laugh:


John
 

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Heck, we'll be lucky if they even include assault boats for river crossings.
You think they'll be including river graphics? :crosseye: :laugh:

That said, they could have started a scenario from the beaches, with the allies (insert "Americans" here) simply trying to get off. But that would force "hidden" fortifications & free defensive setups...

So, we've got no fish, we've got no frying pan, and we've got no fuel to keep the fire going. All that leaves us is a lot of carping.
However, what it does show is that most of us won't be buying the fishing poles they're trying to sell at their empty "fishing lake." :paperbag:
 

Geordie

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One things for sure, I went to Normandy in March this year and theres a heck of a lot of water everywhere. CM US Westfront without water will be so wrong.
 
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