Newbie and Case B, C and J

acolic

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Hi,

I am going through the armour rules right now and am playing Blazing Chariots.

Case B, C and J are confusing me.

Could someone tell me if the below are true:

Case B only applies to armour units which did not fire during their prep fire phase or move during their movement phase. If an armoured unit then attempts to fire during the AFPh then it pays the Case B DRM.

Case C If during your movement phase one of your armoured unit fires while moving at a target that has been more then 3 MP in its line of site then it pays the Case C DRM.

Case C1 and C2 are similar to Case C except how long the target has been in the line of site of the moving armoured unit.

Case C4 no idea what this is. How is this different from the other Case C's?

Case J applies if the target you are firing against is moving and has been in your line of site >3MP.

Case J1/2 similar to Case J except for how long the enemy moving target has been in your line of site.

Case J3/4 -1DRM if the enemy armoured unit did not use assault move or is moving in open ground.


More Questions.

A friendly stopped armoured unit prep fires at a moving enemy armoured unit in open ground which has been >3 MP in its line of site. It pays the case J3/4 penalty.

A friendly moving armoured unit prep fires at a moving enemy armoured unit in open ground which has been >3 MP in its line of site. It pays the case C penalty and the case J3/4 penalty.

During the AFPh a friendly unit which moved during its movement phase and then stopped fires at a moving enemy unit. It pays the Case C4 penalty and the Case J penalty.

Do I have this correct.

Thanks for the help.

Alex
 

Jack Dionne

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acolic said:
Hi,

I am going through the armour rules right now and am playing Blazing Chariots.

Case B, C and J are confusing me.

Could someone tell me if the below are true:

Case B only applies to armour units which did not fire during their prep fire phase or move during their movement phase. If an armoured unit then attempts to fire during the AFPh then it pays the Case B DRM.
That's right


Case C If during your movement phase one of your armoured unit fires while moving at a target that has been more then 3 MP in its line of site then it pays the Case C DRM.
Do you mean moving as in motion? Or a stopped vehicle firing in the advance fire phase? Big difference

Case C1 and C2 are similar to Case C except how long the target has been in the line of site of the moving armoured unit.

That's correct, the longer you can see a target the easier it is to hit.

Case C4 no idea what this is. How is this different from the other Case C's?
That particular drm is for a vehicles which are still moving ie with a motion counter on it. Notice the difference if you have a stabilized gun. Don't have my rulebook in front of me but firing a vehicle with a motion counter means it will be done in the advancing fire phase or defensive fire phase only.

Case J applies if the target you are firing against is moving and has been in your line of site >3MP.
Just moving alone nothing to do with how many MP. You must you case J1 and J2 depending on how many MP it uses.

Case J1/2 similar to Case J except for how long the enemy moving target has been in your line of site.
Correct

Case J3/4 -1DRM if the enemy armoured unit did not use assault move or is moving in open ground.

Those drm's apply to the infantry target type only.

More Questions.

A friendly stopped armoured unit prep fires at a moving enemy armoured unit in open ground which has been >3 MP in its line of site. It pays the case J3/4 penalty.

Greater than 3 MP it only pays case J. Remember the longer you see it the easier it is to hit. You must also consider the size of the target as well case P.

A friendly moving armoured unit prep fires at a moving enemy armoured unit in open ground which has been >3 MP in its line of site. It pays the case C penalty and the case J3/4 penalty.
A friendly moving armoured unit cannot prep fire.



During the AFPh a friendly unit which moved during its movement phase and then stopped fires at a moving enemy unit. It pays the Case C4 penalty and the Case J penalty.
The unit is stopped therefore you do not use case C4. It's a normal bounding fire shot. Because the enemy unit is moving and your firing during your advancing fire phase the proper terminology is motion target. Motion targets get +2 case J.


Thanks for the help.

Alex
Do I have this correct.
You still need some help on the basic concepts. Not too bad though. My advice to you is get someone who has played before and go for it. Play armour scenario's those are lots of fun. I like Tiger, Tiger.

Answers in your message.
 
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CPRad

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Hey

This may not apply to you but I had the same trouble getting my head around what the case C's were all about until my good buddy Alan explaned to me that in your MPh your tank can start .. stop .. fire ... start up again ... stop ... fire again all in the same phase. This made case C's much more easily understood .....

Clear as mud? hmmmm
 

The Purist

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I love the tanks,....give me tanks, tanks, tanks!!! :horse:

I'm without my rule book at the moment but will edit this post these evening if you have not received an in depth reply by then. I would wager, though, that WaterRabbit or da Priest (or some other tank enthusiast) will be able to explain the details to you before 6:00 p.m. (EST).

EDIT: ok,....see post below for my take on this wonderful aspect of our game :D
 
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da priest

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The Purist said:
..I would wager, though, that ...da Priest (or some other tank enthusiast) ...
Ahem, Sir! I take that as an insult, my seconds will contact yours....Rulebooks at 30 inches....

The Game is Advanced SQUAD Leader....the Tread Heads need to go to Tank Leader...:smoke:
 

Matt Romey

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da priest said:
Ahem, Sir! I take that as an insult, my seconds will contact yours....Rulebooks at 30 inches....

The Game is Advanced SQUAD Leader....the Tread Heads need to go to Tank Leader...:smoke:
You blew it now, Purist. Ron hates tanks.
 

The Purist

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:OHNO: Er, beggin' yur pardon there, big guy. I'll endeavour to print a TH Table from the web and address this issue.

:D Hehe :D Nice bear, niiiiicccee bear!! :D
 

The Purist

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"Case B only applies to armour units which did not fire during their prep fire phase or move during their movement phase. If an armoured unit then attempts to fire during the AFPh then it pays the Case B DRM."

This is correct.

"Case C If during your movement phase one of your armoured unit fires while moving at a target that has been more then 3 MP in its line of site then it pays the Case C DRM."

Yes, provided you have expended a stop MP, otherwise it gets more complicated (Motion Firer)

"Case C1 and C2 are similar to Case C except how long the target has been in the line of site of the moving armoured unit.

Correct it could put your Case C mods all the way up to +4.

"Case C4 no idea what this is. How is this different from the other Case C's?"

If you have not expended a stop MP you are a motion firer. In this case you use Case B + C plus any of C1 and C2 ,....and then double the lower die. Example: Your Tiger comes rumbling down the street and sees my Cromwell sitting still but you are afraid of my 17 pdr hidden somewhere, so you decide to fire without expending a stop MP. You have seen me for 4MP, you are a Tiger ace and therefore CE...the DR modifiers would be:

Case B: +2 (even though its the move phase)
Case C: +2 Bounding firer(T/ST)
Case C4: x 2 the lower dr

Range for our purposes is 6 hexes - Base TH is a 10
+2 for Case B
+2 for Case C
Case C4, double the lower the dr for motion firer.

Final modified TH DR required for a hit is a 6 (remember to x2 the lower dr).

A 5, 1 would miss (5 + (1 x 2) = final mod DR = 7)

A 4, 2 would miss (4 + (2 x 2) = final mod DR =8)

A 3,3 would miss (3 + (3 x 2) = final mod DR = 9)

and so on (a 3, 1 would hit; 3 + (1 x 2) = 5) .

"Case J applies if the target you are firing against is moving and has been in your line of site >3MP."

Provided you are not in motion, yes. If in motion it gets more complicated

"Case J1/2 similar to Case J except for how long the enemy moving target has been in your line of site."

Correct again, provided you are not in motion.

"Case J3/4 -1DRM if the enemy armoured unit did not use assault move or is moving in open ground."

Nope,...this applies only to "infantry" not to vehicles or other means of transport (ie: Cavalry)

"A friendly stopped armoured unit prep fires at a moving enemy armoured unit in open ground which has been >3 MP in its line of site. It pays the case J3/4 penalty."

No,...as above. Vehicles and their PRC are not subject to FFNAM and FFMO. If you shoot at a moving ememy vehicle you use case J, J1, J2 or combination as they apply.

"A friendly moving armoured unit prep fires at a moving enemy armoured unit in open ground which has been >3 MP in its line of site. It pays the case C penalty and the case J3/4 penalty

No,....motion units cannot Prep Fire, you have to wait until the Move/DFF Phase or Def Fire Phase. The freindly would then be a motion firer with all the usual DR mods.

"During the AFPh a friendly unit which moved during its movement phase and then stopped fires at a moving enemy unit. It pays the Case C4 penalty and the Case J penalty."

No, It would pay Case B, C and J (provided you are still CE). The C1,2 and J1, 2, 3/4 only apply during the move phase.

:nuts: Whew!! I think I have it all right. Others are free to elaborate if they like.
 
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CPRad

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The Purist said:
"Case B only applies to armour units which did not fire during their prep fire phase or move during their movement phase. If an armoured unit then attempts to fire during the AFPh then it pays the Case B DRM."

This is correct.

"Case C If during your movement phase one of your armoured unit fires while moving at a target that has been more then 3 MP in its line of site then it pays the Case C DRM."

Yes, provided you have expended a stop MP, otherwise it gets more complicated (Motion Firer)

"Case C1 and C2 are similar to Case C except how long the target has been in the line of site of the moving armoured unit.

Correct it could put your Case C mods all the way up to +4.

"Case C4 no idea what this is. How is this different from the other Case C's?"

If you have not expended a stop MP you are a motion firer. In this case you use Case B + C plus any of C1 and C2 ,....and then double the lower die. Example: Your Tiger comes rumbling down the street and sees my Cromwell sitting still but you are afraid of my 17 pdr hidden somewhere, so you decide to fire without expending a stop MP. You have seen me for 4MP, you are a Tiger ace and therefore CE...the DR modifiers would be:

Case B: +2 (even though its the move phase)
Case C: +2 Bounding firer(T/ST)
Case C4: x 2 the lower dr

Range for our purposes is 6 hexes - Base TH is a 10
+2 for Case B
+2 for Case C
Case C4, double the lower the dr for motion firer.

Final modified TH DR required for a hit is a 6 (remember to x2 the lower dr).

A 5, 1 would miss (5 + (1 x 2) = final mod DR = 7)

A 4, 2 would miss (4 + (2 x 2) = final mod DR =8)

A 3,3 would miss (3 + (3 x 2) = final mod DR = 9)

and so on (a 3, 1 would hit; 3 + (1 x 2) = 5) .

"Case J applies if the target you are firing against is moving and has been in your line of site >3MP."

Provided you are not in motion, yes. If in motion it gets more complicated

"Case J1/2 similar to Case J except for how long the enemy moving target has been in your line of site."

Correct again, provided you are not in motion.

"Case J3/4 -1DRM if the enemy armoured unit did not use assault move or is moving in open ground."

Nope,...this applies only to "infantry" not to vehicles or other means of transport (ie: Cavalry)

"A friendly stopped armoured unit prep fires at a moving enemy armoured unit in open ground which has been >3 MP in its line of site. It pays the case J3/4 penalty."

No,...as above. Vehicles and their PRC are not subject to FFNAM and FFMO. If you shoot at a moving ememy vehicle you use case J, J1, J2 or combination as they apply.

"A friendly moving armoured unit prep fires at a moving enemy armoured unit in open ground which has been >3 MP in its line of site. It pays the case C penalty and the case J3/4 penalty

No,....motion units cannot Prep Fire, you have to wait until the Move/DFF Phase or Def Fire Phase. The freindly would then be a motion firer with all the usual DR mods.

"During the AFPh a friendly unit which moved during its movement phase and then stopped fires at a moving enemy unit. It pays the Case C4 penalty and the Case J penalty."

No, It would pay Case B, C and J (provided you are still CE). The C1,2 and J1, 2, 3/4 only apply during the move phase.

:nuts: Whew!! I think I have it all right. Others are free to elaborate if they like.
Excellent !! I'm copying this and using it as a reference.
 

alanp

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remember when the rules say "move" it doesn't also cover "Advance"; so when J3/4 say "FFNAM" or "FFMO" you need to think about who is subject the those two modifiers. Notice the TH cases C and C1: one mentions 'Bounding Firer' the other 'Bounding First Firer'. Keep in mind what these two specific phrases mean and you'll go far! Just like D1F means def. fire during opponent's MPh, B1F means fire during your MPh.

erratum: case C can be as high as +5 with NT Gun

Alan
 

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Correction: Case C can be as high as +6 DRM.

+3 Case B Firing from woods/building/rubble (C5.2, Penultimate sentence)
+3 Case C NT Gun
=+6

Many people forget this, as well as doubling of Case A for firing from woods/building/rubble. :D
 

WaterRabbit

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da priest said:
The Game is Advanced SQUAD Leader....the Tread Heads need to go to Tank Leader...:smoke:
So either your games have really, really low counter density or you switched to playing Squads and Leaders. :laugh:
 

WaterRabbit

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The Purist said:
"Case B only applies to armour units which did not fire during their prep fire phase or move during their movement phase. If an armoured unit then attempts to fire during the AFPh then it pays the Case B DRM."

This is correct.
To be more precise it applies to Ordnance Fire. For example, certain En Portee Guns.

"Case C4 no idea what this is. How is this different from the other Case C's?"

The Purist said:
If you have not expended a stop MP you are a motion firer. In this case you use Case B + C plus any of C1 and C2 ,....and then double the lower die. Example: Your Tiger comes rumbling down the street and sees my Cromwell sitting still but you are afraid of my 17 pdr hidden somewhere, so you decide to fire without expending a stop MP. You have seen me for 4MP, you are a Tiger ace and therefore CE...the DR modifiers would be:

Case B: +2 (even though its the move phase)
Case C: +2 Bounding firer(T/ST)
Case C4: x 2 the lower dr
Just a minor quibble here: A unit can only be in MOTION either prior to its MPh or after its MPh. If during its MPh, it changes hex/hexside it is Moving. If it has expending a Start MP it is Non-Stopped until it either expends a Stop MP or becomes Immobile. Note that you can be a Non-Stopped vehicle and still not be considered a Moving target.

A Gyrostabilized Gun only adds +1 for Case C4 instead of doubling the lower die.

The Purist said:
"During the AFPh a friendly unit which moved during its movement phase and then stopped fires at a moving enemy unit. It pays the Case C4 penalty and the Case J penalty."

...and then stopped fires at a MOTION enemy unit...

Finally, note that Case L does not apply if either the firer or the target is Non-Stopped/in MOTION.
 

The Purist

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"Just a minor quibble here: A unit can only be in MOTION either prior to its MPh or after its MPh. If during its MPh, it changes hex/hexside it is Moving. If it has expending a Start MP it is Non-Stopped until it either expends a Stop MP or becomes Immobile. Note that you can be a Non-Stopped vehicle and still not be considered a Moving target."

All you say is absolutely true WaterRabbit, but,...well,...I was trying to keep the explanation fairly simple and basic, not wanting to overload 'Ocolic' with too much info at once. ;) I'll wager his next questions will involve the above,...to say nothing about cases E, L and P :crosseye: I'm sure he will really enjoy parsing moving/motion/non-stopped firer for case L :D
 

acolic

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Ok, I almost have all this.

Just a couple of more examples to get clarification on.

Two vehicles are facing each other. Both are stopped and both have been in each others line of sight for > 3MP.

If during vehicle ones movment phase it decides to fire against vehicle two it would be no Case B, C or J DRM.

If instead vehicle one started, moved closer, stopped and then fired, there would be a case C DRM.

If instead vehicle one started, moved closer and fired on the move there would be a case C4 DRM.

Lets say that vehicle two was in motion. In that case there would be a case J for all the above.

If vehicle one started, moved, stopped and fired at a moving vehicle two during the AFPh there would be a Case C and a Case J DRM.

Is the above all correct?

Thanks

Alex
 

The Purist

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Alex,

We'll assume range of 3-6 hexes with no hindrances, Cromwell vs PzKw IVH. All vehicles are CE

"If during vehicle ones movment phase it decides to fire against vehicle two it would be no Case B, C or J DRM."

No. If veh. 1 expends one MP it may fire and it must apply Case B as per C5.2 even though it has not moved to a new hex.

"If instead vehicle one started, moved closer, stopped and then fired, there would be a Case C DRM."

Correct, as per C5.3 (usually +4).

"If instead vehicle one started, moved closer and fired on the move there would be a case C4 DRM."

If the vehicle fires while moving (not expending a stop MP) it would pay Case C (includes case B) and Case C4. DR mods are +2 for Case B, +2 for Case C, 2 x lower dr for Case C4.

"Lets say that vehicle two was in motion. In that case there would be a case J for all the above."

Yes, an additional +2 for firing at a moving target.

"If vehicle one started, moved, stopped and fired at a moving vehicle two during the AFPh there would be a Case C and a Case J DRM."

Yes, that is correct. +2 for Case B, +2 for Case C and +2 for Case J.
 
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zgrose

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Quick and related question of Case C

The chart says:
Case B plus [Stabilized Gun: +1] [T/ST: +2] [NT: +3]

Given all the examples above it seems that it makes no sense to refer to Case B at all since the text in Case B leads one to believe it is NA to MPh firing. Is it synonymous to just write?:

+2 plus [Stabilized Gun: +1] [T/ST: +2] [NT: +3]

or

[Stabilized Gun: +3] [T/ST: +4] [NT: +2]
 

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zgrose said:
Quick and related question of Case C

The chart says:
Case B plus [Stabilized Gun: +1] [T/ST: +2] [NT: +3]

Given all the examples above it seems that it makes no sense to refer to Case B at all since the text in Case B leads one to believe it is NA to MPh firing. Is it synonymous to just write?:

+2 plus [Stabilized Gun: +1] [T/ST: +2] [NT: +3]

or

[Stabilized Gun: +3] [T/ST: +4] [NT: +2]
You have a good point, but unfortunately its not completely synonymous, since Case B is +3 instead of +2 if firing from woods/building/rubble. This is not listed on the official chart, so is probably missed by many (not those who use my IIFT(M)QRDC of course, because its clearly listed there) :D

Anyway, to get it fully correct, you would have to write something like:
[Stabilized Gun: +3] [T/ST: +4] [NT: +2] (additional +1 if firing from woods/building/rubble)
 

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For an AFV that has moved and stopped, a good rule of thumb that works most of the time is:

+4 Stopped
+5 Buttoned (Stopped & BU)
 

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Reepicheep said:
For an AFV that has moved and stopped, a good rule of thumb that works most of the time is:

+4 Stopped
+5 Buttoned (Stopped & BU)
That's true if turreted. You can add +1 for non-turreted AFV (and another if in woods/building/rubble).
 
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