Newb Review of Forgotten War: Two-Toned Counters Blow

Paul M. Weir

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While I have only skimmed the FW stuff, just so many ASL items in my last delivery, the one thing I will not complain about is the mix of nationalities covered by scenarios. The existing mix (16 FW, 1 WO2018) gives a good taste of the major combatants while providing the material and toys to portray the others. That to me is the most important part of a core module, it enables other forces that can be covered in other publications, MMP or TPP. If you wish you can now dream up a Canadian or Turkish action from a history while still being in the official ASLverse, something you could not do a month ago.

The lack of C/G and E for some of the combatants is something I am not quite accepting in my gut. For example, no G for the British (or French, Turkish, etc) I might accept, we're not talking about WW2 mass conscription so a higher degree of peacetime professionalism would be at play. The Chinese could afford to send a better class of troops than average from their vast manpool, so no C, OK. But no E troops, that I find a bit harder to swallow. It means that their highest effective morale will be 8 whilst the NK and British can hit 9 (Fanatic E) and most of the time just 7 vs 8. No problem with striping, though I suspect that is a bit of a simplification but generally OK.

I also find the Chinese limit of -1 as a leadership DRM a bit off. While I knew about the lack of formal rank structures and the use of appointments rather than ranks, I don't think that that translates right to ASL. One of the first things that was mentioned for SL is that SL (and later ASL) leaders are not rank dependant. You might have a 9-2 that was a sergeant but his captain might only be an 8-0 or not even represented. Leadership in ASL is supposed to represent performance, not rank. Saying that Chinese troops and leaders could not accumulate experience to bring them to E status or -2 leadership, I find a bit unpalatable. I would have been less upset with a Japanese rank system than the existing Finnish style.

I suppose that will fade in time.

One question I have is that while the Partisan 337s were about the best representation of pre-WW2 and WW2 Chinese Communist forces, do the FW designers think the FW Chinese should be applicable to post-WW2 Chinese Civil War PLA units?
 

Kenneth P. Katz

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The Chinese Civil War is far outside my area of expertise, but I would think that the Initial Intervention CPVA would be useful to represent the PLA as it transitioned from an irregular partisan-like force to more of an army.

Neither the Chinese nor the ROK Army have Elite forces. I think that is generally accurate; I can't think of units in either of those armies that would be elite as we would use that term. As always, if you think that a unit from one of those armies is unusually good, use 1st line units with a 4 ELR and a high number of good leaders. More and better leaders make for orders of battle which are functionally equivalent to those with higher grade squads. The CPVA don't have conscripts because CPVA doctrine and tactics compensated for deficiencies in training and experience, albeit at a high cost in casualties. Of course neither traditional Chinese culture nor Communist ideology place a high value on the lives of individuals.

The lack of C/G and E for some of the combatants is something I am not quite accepting in my gut. For example, no G for the British (or French, Turkish, etc) I might accept, we're not talking about WW2 mass conscription so a higher degree of peacetime professionalism would be at play. The Chinese could afford to send a better class of troops than average from their vast manpool, so no C, OK. But no E troops, that I find a bit harder to swallow. It means that their highest effective morale will be 8 whilst the NK and British can hit 9 (Fanatic E) and most of the time just 7 vs 8. No problem with striping, though I suspect that is a bit of a simplification but generally OK.

I also find the Chinese limit of -1 as a leadership DRM a bit off. While I knew about the lack of formal rank structures and the use of appointments rather than ranks, I don't think that that translates right to ASL. One of the first things that was mentioned for SL is that SL (and later ASL) leaders are not rank dependant. You might have a 9-2 that was a sergeant but his captain might only be an 8-0 or not even represented. Leadership in ASL is supposed to represent performance, not rank. Saying that Chinese troops and leaders could not accumulate experience to bring them to E status or -2 leadership, I find a bit unpalatable. I would have been less upset with a Japanese rank system than the existing Finnish style.

I suppose that will fade in time.

One question I have is that while the Partisan 337s were about the best representation of pre-WW2 and WW2 Chinese Communist forces, do the FW designers think the FW Chinese should be applicable to post-WW2 Chinese Civil War PLA units?
 

Ric of The LBC

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The Chinese Civil War is far outside my area of expertise, but I would think that the Initial Intervention CPVA would be useful to represent the PLA as it transitioned from an irregular partisan-like force to more of an army.

Neither the Chinese nor the ROK Army have Elite forces. I think that is generally accurate; I can't think of units in either of those armies that would be elite as we would use that term. As always, if you think that a unit from one of those armies is unusually good, use 1st line units with a 4 ELR and a high number of good leaders. More and better leaders make for orders of battle which are functionally equivalent to those with higher grade squads. The CPVA don't have conscripts because CPVA doctrine and tactics compensated for deficiencies in training and experience, albeit at a high cost in casualties. Of course neither traditional Chinese culture nor Communist ideology place a high value on the lives of individuals.
"nor the ROK Army have Elite forces" There is an article in the Journal about ROK Marines. Not Elite?
 

Capt. Batguano

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The idea behind two-tone counters is to allow multiple nationalities to use the same "?" concealment counters without one being able to tell what kind of counter(?) lay beneath them. So, for example, Hungarians could use German "?" counters and if you had a scenario using both Hungarian and German and all you saw in front of you was concealment counters, you wouldn't know which units (German or Hungarian) lay beneath them.

In FW this applies to all the US Allies using US "?" counters and all the NK allies using Russian "?" counters.

Not aesthetics or a lack of imagination for new color schemes - it had a purpose or rhyme to the reason.
 

Spencer Armstrong

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The idea behind two-tone counters is to allow multiple nationalities to use the same "?" concealment counters without one being able to tell what kind of counter(?) lay beneath them. So, for example, Hungarians could use German "?" counters and if you had a scenario using both Hungarian and German and all you saw in front of you was concealment counters, you wouldn't know which units (German or Hungarian) lay beneath them.

In FW this applies to all the US Allies using US "?" counters and all the NK allies using Russian "?" counters.

Not aesthetics or a lack of imagination for new color schemes - it had a purpose or rhyme to the reason.
I thought it was mostly about sharing SW, but, yeah. This.
 

klasmalmstrom

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I thought it was mostly about sharing SW, but, yeah. This.
I think that was the primary reason for the Chinese... from footnote 45 in Chapter G:

"The two-tone color of Chinese counters has no special significance in rules terms. It simply enables both G.M.D. and Red Chinese (i.e., partisan) units to use the same set of SW in stacks, without the presence of those SW being made obvious by their different color."
 

Rock SgtDan

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> with two-tone counters, it screams at you, because now the left border is 3X thicker than the right border. And two of my counter sheets were substantially offset, so you can expect that some of yours will be too.
>

sheet #2 is 1mm vertical on the left, 2mm on the right. top & bottom equal to the eye. Visible. Objectionable?
sheet #3 is 1mm left, 1.5mm right but the color contrast is less so not too visible to the eye.
sheet #4 is <1mm left, 2mm right. Noticable.
sheet #5 is 1mm left, 1.5mm right but the blue on green makes it not objectionable. The 5/8" counters are not centered both vertically & horizontally. Not a big deal.
sheet #6 infantry is perfectly centered, but the blue is a lighter shade than on #5.
sheet #7 5/8" counters pretty perfectly centered.
 

Rock SgtDan

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That was exactly our intent. The value of the module TO EBAY RESELLERS will greatly increase when the many excellent designers in the community explore the Korea War in more depth.
Fixed yer' typo there.
 

Thunderchief

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The only complaint I have is that with all the nations present, that Canada was not mentioned once. I realize that there can only be so many scenarios but we contributed as well as the Australians, New Zealanders etc. But I hope that those scenario and campaign gurus out there expand on the scenarios available. Otherwise the module is a fantastic effort.
I have no inside goss on what's in the next journal - but I'm guessing a bunch of Korean War scenarios...........
 

JRKrejsa

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I have no inside goss on what's in the next journal - but I'm guessing a bunch of Korean War scenarios...........
I hope so.

The more I learn about the conflict, the more I notice that the existing set of scenarios just scratch the surface.

But, that’s what core modules are for.
 

Kenneth P. Katz

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Alternative to two-tone counters:
  • Totally new colors (violet CPVA, pink OUNC?)
  • Different shade of an existing color (and how will this new color be differentiated from the already in-use tones of browns, greens and grays, including the module to module and print run to print run variation?)
  • Reuse existing color
Personally, I prefer two-tone counters to any of these alternatives. Not to mention that the specific colors chosen allow the CPVA to use Russian ? and SW/Gun/Vehicles counters, and the same for ROK and OUNC using American ? and SW/Gun/Vehicle counters.
 

wrongway149

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Now, the intent of the designers, it seems, was not to try to cover the whole war, or take advantage of all the chrome they had constructed, but instead to kick off a sort of Golden Age of Korea Scenario Design. If this materializes, and all of a sudden I've got 50 Korea scenarios to play, then the chrome:content ratio will fall, and I'll be much more interested in learning the Korea rules.

That was exactly our intent. The value of the module will greatly increase when the many excellent designers in the community explore the Korea War in more depth.

.
I am already gathering my own thoughts and will have some in the next few Journals.
 

footsteps

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Alternative to two-tone counters:
  • Totally new colors (violet CPVA, pink OUNC?)
  • Different shade of an existing color (and how will this new color be differentiated from the already in-use tones of browns, greens and grays, including the module to module and print run to print run variation?)
  • Reuse existing color
Personally, I prefer two-tone counters to any of these alternatives. Not to mention that the specific colors chosen allow the CPVA to use Russian ? and SW/Gun/Vehicles counters, and the same for ROK and OUNC using American ? and SW/Gun/Vehicle counters.
Perhaps the full Crayola spectrum should be further explored.

South Korea: Yellow-Orange
North Korea: Orange-Yellow

;)
 

von Marwitz

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Perhaps the full Crayola spectrum should be further explored.

South Korea: Yellow-Orange
North Korea: Orange-Yellow

;)
Or maybe we should move on to a three color spectrum:

Yellow border, Orange center and Beige font. The opponents could get Beige center, Orange center, and Yelllow border. Another part of the OoB Beige Border, Yellow Font, and Orange center. Then dim the lighting of the game-room and you're in for some realistic fog of war... :D

von Marwitz
 

Ric of The LBC

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Or maybe we should move on to a three color spectrum:

Yellow border, Orange center and Beige font. The opponents could get Beige center, Orange center, and Yelllow border. Another part of the OoB Beige Border, Yellow Font, and Orange center. Then dim the lighting of the game-room and you're in for some realistic fog of war... :D

von Marwitz
Better yet. http://www.magiceye.com/3dfun/stwkdisp.shtml
 
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