Newb asks, What's up with bocage?

Gunner Scott

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Ha ha, you must have not played deluxe scenario 17 They're Coming! All time great scenario that uses bocage.

Scott
meh, I would not go that far as to say the rest of us. I too am sick of Bocage related releases. But I am sick of Stalingrad too........:)

Peace

Rogerm
 

witchbottles

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Depends if you have enough infantry to cover it all. Since LOS is so restricted, yet infantry movement isn't, the terrain actually played into both armies weaknesses--the Germans short on infantry, the US tied to motor transport and massive tank support that couldn't maneuver. The Germans were also very good at using their battalion mortars in the defense, despite the overall overwhelming US advantage in arty. Still, the Germans knew they were losing the battle because they could not make up the infantry losses, while the US just kept getting more infantry, armor and artillery.
To be fair, the Seventh Army did one hell of a job considering all the cards were stacked against them ( short of manpower and AFVs, no air cover, little artillery, short on ammunition, enemy with freedom of maneuver, enemy tactical and strategic air support, enemy naval firepower, enemy abundance in vehicles, supply, material, ammunition. The list goes on and on, and yet it took Cobra to break out from the bocage.

I'd also say that most german officers were likely well aware they were losing the battle when Hitler refused Paulus' request to fall back from Stalingrad and Montgomery launched "Supercharge"; two years before Normandy.
 

RobZagnut

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Ha ha, you must have not played deluxe scenario 17 They're Coming! All time great scenario that uses bocage.

Scott
That is a great scenario. Played about 75% of the Hedgerow Hell scenarios. Some great scenarios in that module with Road to St. Lo being my fav deluxe bocage scenario.

But it was a simpler rule set with that module and Wall Advantage was only across one hex side.
 

Robin Reeve

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meh, I would not go that far as to say the rest of us. I too am sick of Bocage related releases. But I am sick of Stalingrad too........:)

Peace

Rogerm
You need to find peace, Roger.

Peace

Robin
 

rdw5150

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Ha ha, you must have not played deluxe scenario 17 They're Coming! All time great scenario that uses bocage.

Scott
Hello!

I am not saying I will not or have not played Bocage. What I am saying is that I am tired of Bocage related items. I want to be excited when something comes out, not thinking to myself, "really? Another Bocage (or Stalingrad) release?"

<ponders>

Still tend to gobble them up though:nod:

Peace

Roger
 

Steven Pleva

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I was good with the Bocage rules until the LOS thread a little while back. Now I'm not sure everyone plays it the same way anymore. I will have to issue a special Albany ruling for any Bocage scenario in the future...
Steve
 

sdennis

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I won't play bocage... back in the day I could not find two players who agreed on how to play it. I have been told it is much better now after the WA rewrite but it's still not worth the effort for me... too many other things to play
 

Paul S NJ

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I like bocage. JR Tracy and I played 'Tired and unsupported' for a replay article in the journal. We made some mistakes, but you can pick up the meat of bocage and WA rules.

PS it's very pro-US as published.

Paul
 

jwb3

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I'm fine with bocage. I do think the revised WA rules feel excessive, but I can only assume they were all put in to resolve problems other people had with the old ones.

Having said that, bocage in ASL is not very "realistic" and does not penalize the attacker in some of the ways it historically "ought" to, which I think is why people decide it favors the attacker:

- Bocage was very easy to get lost in, or at least very hard to make sense of. With our omniscient view of the board, our attacking troops have far too much knowledge of the terrain ahead of them so they can sometimes move far too efficiently.

- It was very hard to spot defender fire from hedgerows. In ASL the defender always loses concealment to shoot; a more realistic version would be like the HIP gun rules and allow concealment to be maintained unless a 5 or 6 was rolled on the colored die.

- Just because a hedgerow blocked your LOS didn't necessarily mean you couldn't call in artillery. Real artillery can fire blind at grid references or semi-blind at "just past that hedgerow we can't see through", neither of which is possible in ASL. So our OBA is typically being called in only two or three hexes away, where it has a very high chance of scattering out of LOS and/or onto friends and/or onto the observer. This particularly reduces the effectiveness of the historically deadly German mortar barrages.

- Real bocage fields were much smaller than ASL ones. While the overall feel of an ASL board is usually right, the fact that it's at the wrong scale messes with a bunch of aspects of the ASL design. In particular, one-hex fields becoming unflankable mini-fortresses with all-around fields of fire is something that could never happen in the real thing.


John
 

Brian W

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I think all those problems are intrinsic to ASL, not just bocage in ASL.
 

wrongway149

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I'm fine with bocage. I do think the revised WA rules feel excessive, but I can only assume they were all put in to resolve problems other people had with the old ones.

- Bocage was very easy to get lost in, or at least very hard to make sense of. With our omniscient view of the board, our attacking troops have far too much knowledge of the terrain ahead of them so they can sometimes move far too efficiently.

- It was very hard to spot defender fire from hedgerows. In ASL the defender always loses concealment to shoot; a more realistic version would be like the HIP gun rules and allow concealment to be maintained unless a 5 or 6 was rolled on the colored die.

John
Hmm very interesting. maybe 'straying' rules should apply to units moving in hex with bocage hexsides.

I would say concealment gain applies to both players if out of LOS or LOS can be traced only through bocage hexsides.
 

Tuomo

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I played a homegrown Bocage scenario recently that used two of the BFP Bocage boards, and I noticed how those boards helped emphasize the classic Bocage problems. The "cells" (areas completely enclosed by Bocage) are big enough to offer the defender several options for where to be, and there's enough Bocage to make movement kinda slow. With smaller cells, the lack of hexspine LOS can hamper the defender more and make them easier to flank.

My only disappointment is the lack of breaks in the Bocage - how did the local farmers get into those fields? And breaks would provide interesting tactical aspects as well.

Still, thumbs up for the boards actually helping deliver the feel for the style of fighting.
 

rdw5150

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See also Panjiis.
Missed this the first time through the thread. This gets my vote for most over written rule. We are talking a pit with sharp sticks.o_O:happy:

Peace

Roger
 

Robin Reeve

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It is not even a pit - it is only sticks. :D
The solitaire "Battle Hymn" game had tiger traps.
Why aren't they depicted in ASL?
Perhaps would they have taken twenty more pages of chapter G.
 

wrongway149

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Hi other Carl :). It's a real love/hate relationship as you can see. Personally, I rather like bocage and clearly, mileage may vary. I would get a little more grounded in the basic rules before jumping into bocage though. Where you are still learning the game, I would get the standard wall advantage rules in hand first. Once done, you can handle the hedgerow country far easier.
mm I wonder if bocage rules would be easier for a player just learning. Fewer biases or confusion with older versions, etc.

Advice: allow a guru to fill you empty vessel.
 
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