New John Tiller Wargame!
- Thread starter Jim H. Moreno
- Start date
Marines
Member
I'm a huge fan of Tillers games however they really need to redesign the user interface. The second screen looks just like Fulda Gap '85, North German Plain '85, ...........
rahamy
HPS Games Forum Moderator
Really? What about it don't you like? I personally like the fact that he uses a similar interface between the various series of games, that way I can easily transition between them.
Marines
Member
Withdrawn...I meant graphics.
Honestly I get headaches after about an hour of playing FG'85 or NGP'85 because its stale presentation but it doesn't keep me from going on.
They really should change it...it needs a facelift and I'm not talking about high speed 3D graphics something more along the lines of Flashpoint Germany.
Honestly I get headaches after about an hour of playing FG'85 or NGP'85 because its stale presentation but it doesn't keep me from going on.
They really should change it...it needs a facelift and I'm not talking about high speed 3D graphics something more along the lines of Flashpoint Germany.Marines
Member
Flashpoint Germany
Marines
Member
Its just that FG is much easier on the eyes than the old style. The engine is so outdated it really needs to be updated or they need to create a new one. Most developers have wised up and given the much needed facelift to the genre and just because it looks better doesn't mean it will sacrifice game play for eye candy.
FG '85 now do you see what I'm talking about when you compare the two?
FG '85 now do you see what I'm talking about when you compare the two?
BigMik1
Member
Found this on THE WARGAMER site about the game:
rahamy
HPS Games Forum Moderator
Hi Marines,
I see a difference, sure, but not one that is tremendous and that would make me get on a "face lift" campaign.
I find it easier to "read" the Tiller map rather than the FG one. I don't know what your display settings are at, nor what options FG gives you on that, but I like to see a lot of the map at one time, which the Tiller titles allow. I also use "Auto Scroll", which removes the scroll bars, and I place the hex info area at the bottom of the map, so that gives me a better scope. Additionally the "tile" format that John uses allows for huge maps to be created, where the old Battleground hand-painted maps did not. A prime example of this benefit will be seen with this last title, Gettysburg, where there are several huge maps included.
Could the graphics be improved? Sure, but would it be worth the expense? Personally I would rather have more campaigns to fight on more maps and more topics covered rather than have development money put into "eye candy" which in essence is all that it is. Yes, that's just me personaly, I know. I am more for engine enhancements, new features and maintaining the rock-solid stability of the games rather than something like this.
If we were talking about 20,000+ copies of each game going out the door then yes, by all means, more money would need to be spent, but we aren't. In fact only a fraction of that is sold. With the niche nature of this market you have to make decisions such as this...and for my money I'm fine with the way things have been done. For example, I've been playing Campaign 1776 for over 4 years now and plan on continuing for the forseeable future. I can't name any other game (from other publishers) that I have ever played that long. Usually 6 months to a year tops.
I always direct people to what's "under the hood" with these games. Not only what is included with each title, but also the fact that John gives away all engine enhancements to the entire series as each new game comes out. Dollar for dollar the Tiller titles are very much worth their cost compared to many other purchases I have made over the years. :thumb:
BTW, I have my copy of Gettysburg and it is awesome. Huge maps, a huge campaign game, everything.
Regards,
Rich
I see a difference, sure, but not one that is tremendous and that would make me get on a "face lift" campaign.
I find it easier to "read" the Tiller map rather than the FG one. I don't know what your display settings are at, nor what options FG gives you on that, but I like to see a lot of the map at one time, which the Tiller titles allow. I also use "Auto Scroll", which removes the scroll bars, and I place the hex info area at the bottom of the map, so that gives me a better scope. Additionally the "tile" format that John uses allows for huge maps to be created, where the old Battleground hand-painted maps did not. A prime example of this benefit will be seen with this last title, Gettysburg, where there are several huge maps included.
Could the graphics be improved? Sure, but would it be worth the expense? Personally I would rather have more campaigns to fight on more maps and more topics covered rather than have development money put into "eye candy" which in essence is all that it is. Yes, that's just me personaly, I know.
I am more for engine enhancements, new features and maintaining the rock-solid stability of the games rather than something like this.If we were talking about 20,000+ copies of each game going out the door then yes, by all means, more money would need to be spent, but we aren't. In fact only a fraction of that is sold. With the niche nature of this market you have to make decisions such as this...and for my money I'm fine with the way things have been done. For example, I've been playing Campaign 1776 for over 4 years now and plan on continuing for the forseeable future. I can't name any other game (from other publishers) that I have ever played that long. Usually 6 months to a year tops.
I always direct people to what's "under the hood" with these games. Not only what is included with each title, but also the fact that John gives away all engine enhancements to the entire series as each new game comes out. Dollar for dollar the Tiller titles are very much worth their cost compared to many other purchases I have made over the years. :thumb:
BTW, I have my copy of Gettysburg and it is awesome. Huge maps, a huge campaign game, everything.
Regards,
Rich
About updating the engine...
Here's a link to what Jim Cobb, editorial writer at The Wargamer has to say about "updating the engine" of HPS' series games. He says it a lot better than I can.
http://www.wargamer.com/articles/behind_the_lines_18/page2.asp
Here's a link to what Jim Cobb, editorial writer at The Wargamer has to say about "updating the engine" of HPS' series games. He says it a lot better than I can.
http://www.wargamer.com/articles/behind_the_lines_18/page2.asp
rahamy
HPS Games Forum Moderator
Printshop,
The link didn't work for me at first, so I'm pasting the relevant part below. Correct me please if I got the wrong segment.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Cobb writes on the Wargamer:
HPS has released two new John Tiller games, El Alamein '42 and War over Vietnam. The first game is the 11th addition to the Panzer Campaign series and will, no doubt, be called an over-priced add-on to a "cookie cutter" system. The shallowness of such criticisms never ceases to amaze me. A well-made system can, with minimal adjustments, span a period and still provide enough variety to justify the price of a full game. For example, I played one of Tiller's Russian campaigns last month. When I played El Alamein, the feel was entirely different from the Russian slugging match, despite the similar interface. I felt like I was playing two different systems. Critics of HPS' marketing obviously have no concept of the depth of these games' Orders of Battle and Tables of Organization and Equipment. With Tiller's team, each game is researched from scratch with an incredible amount of work in distinguishing unit characteristics and creating accurate terrain. The fact that the interface doesn't demand significant changes each new game is a positive factor, not something to be called a rip-off by gamers who evidently need new buttons and icons every time they install a game. HPS will show the difference between a new game and an add-on soon. They plan to release free add-ons for North German Plain '85 and El Alamein '42. The add-ons for El Alamein are especially interesting as one will cover the early war in North Africa and another will cover a modern hypothetical campaign in the same region. Perhaps seeing these add-ons will help critics' perspective.
As he has proven repeatedly, Tiller can also create new systems. War over Vietnam is a unique look at the American air offensive during 1964 - 1972 and the North Vietnamese defense against. A pausable real-time game, the player controls flights of American aircraft striking specific targets or handling North Vietnamese radar, SAM and interceptor assets. Scenario designer Gary "Mo" Morgan has done a great job dealing with the complex details of the operations.
Of course, HPS has always provided free scenarios and add-ons. A trip to that site looking for new freebies shows eleven new scenarios and five new maps for Point of Attack 2. The new maps are especially interesting as they lay the groundwork for user-made scenarios without use of Aide de Camp 2.
The link didn't work for me at first, so I'm pasting the relevant part below. Correct me please if I got the wrong segment.
---------------------------------------------------------------
Jim Cobb writes on the Wargamer:
HPS has released two new John Tiller games, El Alamein '42 and War over Vietnam. The first game is the 11th addition to the Panzer Campaign series and will, no doubt, be called an over-priced add-on to a "cookie cutter" system. The shallowness of such criticisms never ceases to amaze me. A well-made system can, with minimal adjustments, span a period and still provide enough variety to justify the price of a full game. For example, I played one of Tiller's Russian campaigns last month. When I played El Alamein, the feel was entirely different from the Russian slugging match, despite the similar interface. I felt like I was playing two different systems. Critics of HPS' marketing obviously have no concept of the depth of these games' Orders of Battle and Tables of Organization and Equipment. With Tiller's team, each game is researched from scratch with an incredible amount of work in distinguishing unit characteristics and creating accurate terrain. The fact that the interface doesn't demand significant changes each new game is a positive factor, not something to be called a rip-off by gamers who evidently need new buttons and icons every time they install a game. HPS will show the difference between a new game and an add-on soon. They plan to release free add-ons for North German Plain '85 and El Alamein '42. The add-ons for El Alamein are especially interesting as one will cover the early war in North Africa and another will cover a modern hypothetical campaign in the same region. Perhaps seeing these add-ons will help critics' perspective.
As he has proven repeatedly, Tiller can also create new systems. War over Vietnam is a unique look at the American air offensive during 1964 - 1972 and the North Vietnamese defense against. A pausable real-time game, the player controls flights of American aircraft striking specific targets or handling North Vietnamese radar, SAM and interceptor assets. Scenario designer Gary "Mo" Morgan has done a great job dealing with the complex details of the operations.
Of course, HPS has always provided free scenarios and add-ons. A trip to that site looking for new freebies shows eleven new scenarios and five new maps for Point of Attack 2. The new maps are especially interesting as they lay the groundwork for user-made scenarios without use of Aide de Camp 2.
Marines
Member
I love Tillers games and will continue to buy them I just wish they would make an effort to improve the overall look.
Glenn Saunders
Member
"....I just wish they would make an effort to improve the overall look."
It is a matter of economics guys!
Unfortunately graphics cost money and the market simply won't support those additional cost at the current time. Maybe it will improve sometime but for now there is no margin in making improvements in this area.
Glenn
It is a matter of economics guys!
Unfortunately graphics cost money and the market simply won't support those additional cost at the current time. Maybe it will improve sometime but for now there is no margin in making improvements in this area.
Glenn
BlackRider
Recruit
Though this is my first post I've actually been following this forum for quite a while. I've just gotten into playing computer strategy games and I have to say that the information I found on here has been invaluable for helping me choose games. (I just wish I hadn't chosen so many. )
I just read that this game is shipping and I would be very interested to hear opinions of anybody who purchased it. It looks very interesting but as I've purchased 4 new games lately I want to make sure I'll like it before I but it.
Thanks!
I just read that this game is shipping and I would be very interested to hear opinions of anybody who purchased it. It looks very interesting but as I've purchased 4 new games lately I want to make sure I'll like it before I but it.
Thanks!
rahamy
HPS Games Forum Moderator
Here's a page where you can read a lot more about it...
http://www.hist-sdc.com/getty/
I'm also going to start a new thread, so this doesn't get burried in our other discussions.
http://www.hist-sdc.com/getty/
I'm also going to start a new thread, so this doesn't get burried in our other discussions.
Maybe sales would improve if Tiller developed a new game engine with a better look and interface. He's been milking the 'Battleground' engine for the last 10 years or so. It's getting very tired. No wonder 'the market' isn't as strong as he might like.
I knew it wouldn't take long for someone to trot out that 'very tired' argument. The interface may bear some resemblance, but the engine underneath is vastly more refined. I guess it benefits from 10 years of experience & development.
Glenn Saunders
Member
> Maybe sales would improve if Tiller developed a new game engine with a better look and interface. He's been milking the 'Battleground' engine for the last 10 years or so. It's getting very tired. No wonder 'the market' isn't as strong as he might like.
Or maybe sales would drop. You see John Tiller is perhaps the most prolific wargame game marker of the last 5 years spawning a common interface in each Series and similarity in Series to Series that makes a transition from game to game easier.
That isn't to say that Gettysburg and Kursk are the same engine, any more than Norm Krogers Age of Rifles and TOAW is the same game. Both have the same style that the programmer uses to create his games.
That you feel the interface is tired to you may indeed be that it is similar to others - guys who don't want to completely relearn something else. Most of these players grew up with complex boardgames where manuals and rules were hundreds of pages - this alone caused me to drop from the Advanced Squad Leader series as I just couldn't keep up any more - no time.
Anyway - this is just a different spin on it - if you played Smolensk '41 a few years ago when it first came out and you remember or would pick it up again pretty quickly - you can also pick up a copy of Alamein pretty fast and be enjoying it, perhaps a lot faster than something completely different.
Glenn
Glenn
Or maybe sales would drop. You see John Tiller is perhaps the most prolific wargame game marker of the last 5 years spawning a common interface in each Series and similarity in Series to Series that makes a transition from game to game easier.
That isn't to say that Gettysburg and Kursk are the same engine, any more than Norm Krogers Age of Rifles and TOAW is the same game. Both have the same style that the programmer uses to create his games.
That you feel the interface is tired to you may indeed be that it is similar to others - guys who don't want to completely relearn something else. Most of these players grew up with complex boardgames where manuals and rules were hundreds of pages - this alone caused me to drop from the Advanced Squad Leader series as I just couldn't keep up any more - no time.
Anyway - this is just a different spin on it - if you played Smolensk '41 a few years ago when it first came out and you remember or would pick it up again pretty quickly - you can also pick up a copy of Alamein pretty fast and be enjoying it, perhaps a lot faster than something completely different.
Glenn
Glenn