New Beta 2.02/3 (60) Patch - Issues?

meade95

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I've been playtesting the new beta patch - Well, the second of the new beta patches that corrects the small Dataview problem with the first one -

Only real issue I'm having (just started playtesting pretty much) is cannot build a scenario from scratch - Process goes fine up until the placement of units - can't do this manually and then the computer does it - at that point when it is time to issue starting orders - game freezes - Won't allow anything to happen at that point - I've waited 20 min and nothing - had to clt-alt-del out - Tried 4 times with all the same results (using different base maps) -

Composite units look sharp (though they will take some time to understand) - Helicopters seem to be working better -

Haven't looked into the LOS issue a lot yet - but from the new programing of it - Looks to be a big improvement -
 

cbelva

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Meade95,

I would recommend that you write Scott and let him know your problem with building a scenario.

Charles
 

meade95

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No - it is a new beta from "playtesters" - I'd guess you'd call it - Final version is suppose to come out in a few days -

Many enhancements with the new 2.03 patch - LOS has been re-worked - Composite units have been reworked - loading, unloading has been fixed, etc, etc -

Though, scenario building seems to have a bug in it - I've sent an email to Scott - who will be working on POA2 tomorrow (sunday) -
 

meade95

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Concering the LOS -

Progressive Block Point Addition

The original release of POA-2 used a purely additive method for determining LOS blocking. In this method, LOS points for terrain (as determined in the section above) were simply added to the LOS as it passed through each location. There was no consideration made for what the LOS may have already passed through, or the fact that the terrain may have overlapped to some degree.

Thanks to a suggestion by Peter von Kleinsmid, POA now uses progressive instead of additive accumulation of LOS block points. In the progressive method, terrain blocking points are adjusted based on what other terrain is in the current location or what terrain the LOS has already passed though. This method is more accurate, in that it models realistic random distribution and overlap between the discrete blocking features in each location (e.g., single trees, buildings, etc.).

To use a very simplified example, let’s assume that one tree causes 1 point worth of blocking, and 10 total points will block the LOS.

At first glance, it would seem that 10 trees should completely block the LOS. However, in reality this is rarely going to be the case because the trees won’t be exactly side-by-side. In fact, in the most extreme case the trees would be aligned perfectly behind one another (from the spotter’s perspective) and the LOS would only be blocked by 10%. In this case, the spotter would see only a single tree, while the other nine will be hidden behind it (and will have no effects on the LOS).

In the chart below, the vertical columns represent the five locations an LOS passes through (Evaluation Points), and the horizontal rows show whether a tree “position” is blocked or not. There are ten “positions” available - one for each of the 10 points needed to block the LOS. For simplicity, in this example single trees cannot be broken up - they can only occupy a single LOS blocking position.

A position (row) is considered blocked to the final LOS if it has at least one tree in it, otherwise it is open.

Using the additive method, the trees in each location would have been added together for a total of 10 blocking points and would have blocked the LOS (10% + 20% + 30% + 20% + 20% = 100%).

In reality, however, the LOS is only 70% blocked. Because the trees are randomly placed in each location, there is a discrete probability that some will overlap, based on the total number of trees in all locations. Overlap results in some tree positions having more than one tree, while others have none. In the above example, trees overlap in Position 2 (Loc 2 and Loc 5), Position 4 (Loc 1 and Loc 4), and Position 8 (Loc 3 and Loc 5). This overlap allows Positions 3, 7 and 10 to remain open.

The progressive model accounts for these statistical overlaps, and makes reduction to the base blocking point values as they are added. The reduction occurs at two levels: to determine the points of each location (for locations with multiple terrain types in them) and along the entire LOS (for each new location it enters).


Range Effects:

In addition to points added from passing through terrain, by default the LOS also accumulates blocking points based solely on the range between the spotter and the target. These points represent dust, distortion, diffraction, and other effects inherent in the atmosphere. The number of points added is based on the Maximum Sighting Range, which is set in the Game Conditions Form when creating a new scenario (Checklist step #4). By definition, at the Maximum Sighting Range the LOS generates 100 blocking points.

Blocking points are added proportionally based on the actual range as a percentage of the Maximum Sighting Range. For example, if the actual range is 40% of the Maximum Range, 40 points will be added to the LOS.

The default Maximum Sighting Range is 10,000 meters.

A secondary effect of long-range on LOS determinations is caused by the curvature of the Earth. The LOS calculations take this curvature into account, using the elevations of the spotter and target. The routines assume the Earth is a perfect sphere outside the area of the map. The LOS can never pass under the horizon (through the Earth).


Silhouetted Targets

The LOS routines also determine if a target is silhouetted, or outlined against a contrasting background - normally the sky. To do this, the routines “run out” the LOS a distance past the target to see if it intercepts the ground or terrain. If it doesn’t, the target is considered silhouetted. Otherwise it is not.

The range of the extra “run out” is a hyperbolic function based on the range between the target and spotter, but is always at least 500 meters.
 

HPS

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This release is for playtesters only. We’ve made a lot of significant changes over the past couple of weeks, and I want to make sure we didn’t really screw something up royally before I release the beta to the public. If everything generally checks out, I’ll release it publicly in about a week.

The composite units now work like they did in TOP2 and my previous games - sort of an “all for one, one for all situation”. If anybody in a composite unit can’t do something, none of them can. Which makes things a lot simpler, and is what the majority of players said they wanted even at the expense of accuracy and flexibility.
But, advanced players will need a full understanding of how they work is really necessary to understand if they want to use them or not (or turn them on and off at certain times), and also to understand why moving or loading is not happening like expected.

Thanks again for your patience and support while we get these things worked out!

-Scott

 

switch_back

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HPS said:
This release is for playtesters only. We’ve made a lot of significant changes over the past couple of weeks, and I want to make sure we didn’t really screw something up royally before I release the beta to the public. If everything generally checks out, I’ll release it publicly in about a week.

The composite units now work like they did in TOP2 and my previous games - sort of an “all for one, one for all situation”. If anybody in a composite unit can’t do something, none of them can. Which makes things a lot simpler, and is what the majority of players said they wanted even at the expense of accuracy and flexibility.
But, advanced players will need a full understanding of how they work is really necessary to understand if they want to use them or not (or turn them on and off at certain times), and also to understand why moving or loading is not happening like expected.

Thanks again for your patience and support while we get these things worked out!

-Scott

Thanks for all your hard work Scott, its great to hear that things are moving and POA2 is getting on its feet, im looking forward to being able to push out some scenarios and get the library of scenarios building quickly!! :D
 

HercMighty

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HPS said:
The composite units now work like they did in TOP2 and my previous games - sort of an “all for one, one for all situation”. If anybody in a composite unit can’t do something, none of them can. Which makes things a lot simpler, and is what the majority of players said they wanted even at the expense of accuracy and flexibility. But, advanced players will need a full understanding of how they work is really necessary to understand if they want to use them or not (or turn them on and off at certain times), and also to understand why moving or loading is not happening like expected.

-Scott
I do not think that people want to have a game that is a certain way at the expense of accuracy and flexibility. I think it comes down to presentation and being able to understand what it is going on. I also think some game features not seeming to work correctly caused a lot of problems with composite units.

When you have different units able to do different things but only one icon and no secondary display depicting the action how are you supposed to understand it? You also lost all visibility of the units under the HQ and no way to issue settings like SOPs to the group, you had to micro that. It just seemed to have a lot of conflicts and problems that made things confusing.
 

Old&Slow

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HPS said:
The composite units now work like they did in TOP2 and my previous games - sort of an “all for one, one for all situation”. If anybody in a composite unit can’t do something, none of them can. Which makes things a lot simpler, and is what the majority of players said they wanted even at the expense of accuracy and flexibility.
But, advanced players will need a full understanding of how they work is really necessary to understand if they want to use them or not (or turn them on and off at certain times), and also to understand why moving or loading is not happening like expected.

Thanks again for your patience and support while we get these things worked out!

-Scott

The missing HPS POA2 Mission Statement.( or what happens when you improve something that 1s not broken )

I think all of us who have been with HPS from the start just wanted an updated Windows version of TOP/PITS with a better interface and _slightly better_ Graphics incorporating the modern weapons systems and weapon effects like CB and perhaps Nukes. Starting from the old days on the Comp U Serv HPS boards, that`s all everyone asked for. TOP in Windows format set in modern times.The hope was we would see a WW III NATO vs Warsaw pact TOP.

Instead, 7 years later :surprise: , we have something nobody knows how to play, no one knows if it works, much is still broken, and no one understands the "features" or why they are even there, since you still need to enter the enemy Hex and close combat them to do anything :crosseye: .....

In TOP/PITS the units size ( platoons upward ) the movement delays based on Comms & doctrine, the HQ effects, the Staff Officers, the CRT and all the other features in TOP/PITS all worked fine. It was simple, but not simplistic and great and accurate Game Play. I wished POA2 worked so well.
 

HercMighty

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Though it would help out greatly if there was a real manual and a real tutorial that actually showed off more than just the toolbar buttons.
 

Hub

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I'm testing the v2.02 build 062 patch.

I can't get the game to work in W98 at all (neither the tutorial- Dataview seems to work OK, although sometimes you have to delete the data tables .dat file and re-open the app, as you can't always get the TOE folder to open first time. Odd, since all the other folders always open OK).

I set up my PC to dual boot to Win 2000, and the game works pretty well in 2K. For the first time in six months, I was able to create a small scenario and play it through to completion. It was just two armour companies in a meeting engagement on the Iraq map. Following the action and reaction as best I could, the results seemed to be in line with what you'd expect to see in "reality." All the menus, drop downs and other gew-gaws displayed as they should, including the Staff Officers (I didn't use them all, but the ones I did use, worked properly). FOW seemed to work very well (I played at FOW Level 3 in hotseat mode, so I could see what each side was trying to look at). I got a C++ error right at the very end- I think it was related to the fact that one side had no units left, as it occurred right after I clicked off the,"Player Two's units have all been destroyed," message.

There are still problems- I noted during set up that when you allow the AI to generate it's own units, all it creates is the TF HQ and nothing else- you have to go in and select units for it to use. The other is more of a recommendation, than a problem- when you are setting the LOD and flank boundaries, you can't see the map. It becomes a problem if you want to play on a certain area of a map with boundaries delimited. It would be nice if you could see the map (like in PitS/ToP) when you do this.

The new LOS seems to work OK- I didn't see any weird things going on with that. I'm going to go on and start testing helos, IF, composite units, and some engineering functions next. This game is very hard to test- you have to decide what parameters you want to observe ahead of time, and ignore the rest, otherwise you will miss something- I think it will be awhile yet before the patch can be released.

I'm highly encouraged with the improvements made so far.
 
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HPS

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I wanted to let you know that the current rev of 2.02 seems to be settling down. We have a couple more things to look at, and assuming nothing major comes up in the interim, once we get those things nailed down I’ll release the beta for the general public. I had wanted to do it last week, but I think it’s best for everyone until we get the known problems squashed.

See ya,
-Scott
 

RedMike

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Thanks for the update Scott, really appreciated. I'm really looking forward to the new beta.
 

gregb7

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The update is appreciated. Just don't wait too
long...people are going to start to lose interest.
 

switch_back

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Thanks for the update Scott, look forward to its release, I got some scenarios to start building :D
 
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