National Distinctions

BattleSchool

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Latverians first line troops are rated as 4-5-7. First line US troops are rated 6-6-6 with a broken ML of 8 (according to national capabilities chart). Rule A25.3 states that 1st line US have a +2 broken ML bump. It seems that the Latverians would have a broken side ML of 9.
Thank you for quoting this as now I don't have to run and get my rule book. You are correct the +2 bump to American 1st Line Squads is specifically mentioned in the A25 National Distinctions section. The broken Latverian 1st line squad would be 9 morale.
I appreciate what you are saying, but the intent of A25.3 is not to make an American First Line squad "better" than an Elite American squad. Why, for example, don't 6-6-7 and 7-4-7 squads have a broken ML of 9? Where is their "+2 bump," as you call it?

A25.3 is intended to model the speed with which American troops in general recovered from setbacks. Second Line and Green troops broke as easily as First Line troops, but did not rally as quickly. The "bump" merely distinguishes Second Line and Green troops from First Line ones.

In reality, the broken ML of an American First Line squad is one greater than that of a Second Line or Green squad. Therefore, the net effect of A25.3 would be to give a First Line Latverian squad a broken ML of 7, or one greater than that of the rumoured Latverian "Second Line" 4-3-7 squad, which my sources tell me has a broken ML of 6.

Finally, given that Wachovian and Latverian combat actions do not appear in any historical record, perhaps both sides should be represented by Second Line Infantry, units unprepared for combat. ;)

A25.3 AMERICAN: U.S. Infantry squads have a printed broken Morale Level one higher than that used on their Good Order side except for 1st Line Infantry, which have a broken Morale Level two higher than their Good Order side. Second Line Infantry should generally be used to represent American units which were not prepared for combat.
 

BattleSchool

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A B12 breaks on a 12 (6,6) for a P of 1/36
A B11 breaks on a 12 (6,6) and on 2 x 11 (6,5 & 5,6) for a P of 3/36 = 1/12.

1/36 = 2.777%
2/36 = 5.555%
3/36 = 8.333%

What you might be confused with is the case of a B11 (6,5 & 5,6), X12 (6,6) weapon which will B on 5.555% and X on 2.777%.

I'm in agreement about the relative effects of B# vs cowering though.
You're right, of course.

I was wondering if you were still awake. :)
 

BattleSchool

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Does his analysis include being marked with Final Fire Counter (and the attendant loss of a possible shot) if your boys cower during First Fire? This is the kind of thing that I refer to as "increased firepower" given to non-cowering troops. Probably I should refer to it as "firepower preservation" but that's not as sexy.
I don't think he measured that. It's a fair point. But then, he didn't take Residual FP--the gift that keeps on giving--into consideration either.

Another way to look at it is to do a cost-benefit analysis.

How often would including extra units in a FG (in order to gain another FP column on the IFT) pay off versus the risk of cowering and losing one or more FP columns? In some cases the net effect would be the same either way. If you don't add the unit, you lose the benefit of the extra FP immediately. If you add the unit and Cower, you lose the extra FP too. More often than not, however, the FG will not Cower. This translates into a more powerful IFT attack, and (possibly) leaves the units the option to Final Fire later. Someone with more maths skills than me will have to take it from here.
 

Nineteen Kilo

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We need to know the LG (leadership generation) factor for the Latverians and their enemy, the Wachovians. The British have 4-5-7 1st line troops with a 7 broken ML. If we use them as the pattern for both sides should we use the British LG to determine the ratio of leaders? Or do the Latverians with self rally use the same LG as the Finns and the Wachovians with the +2 broken ML use the US LG for determining leader ratios?
For arguments sake let's just say the Latverian TO&E, smoke exponent, ratio of leaders to squads, LG modifier, and HOB modifiers are all the equivalent of British on July 1, 1942.

The Wachovian opponents are the mirror image of the Latverians in every manner with the singular exception that they have the highly controversial Fuchsia counters.
 
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Nineteen Kilo

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At this point there seems to be a consensus that Finn Self-Rally is the most desirable A25 National Distinction for our hard working Latverian troopers. If granted a second A25 National Distinction to which one would you go to for a back up?
 

Bob Walters

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How about a new one -- Body armor it reduces incoming fire by 25%. It is a new breakthrough by Latverian Scientists. :D
At this point there seems to be a consensus that Finn Self-Rally is the most desirable A25 National Distinction for our hard working Latverian troopers. If granted a second A25 National Distinction to which one would you go to for a back up?
 
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RandyT0001

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At this point there seems to be a consensus that Finn Self-Rally is the most desirable A25 National Distinction for our hard working Latverian troopers. If granted a second A25 National Distinction to which one would you go to for a back up?
In addition to the self rally I would add the US 1st line +2 to their broken morale. So 4-5-7 1st line squad would have the broken morale of 9 as you stated before with the ability to self rally on an 8 (already including the +1DRM from A10.63). They would have about 50% more leaders than the Finns also.
 

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Indifferently trained by their colonial masters the French, Latverian First Line squads are unreliable at the best of times. Their disdain for their French-educated officers is legionary. ;) Their ability to rally and reform on their own is the stuff of legends.

In contrast, their arch enemy, the Wachovian First Line squad, doesn't seem to know when to quit. Famous for their die-in-place tactics, and suicidal rushes, Wachovian Infantry seldom break under fire. The Belgian expat mercenaries who lead them are equally ruthless.

Latverians versus Wachovians.png
 

Nineteen Kilo

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Indifferently trained by their colonial masters the French, Latverian First Line squads are unreliable at the best of times. Their disdain for their French-educated officers is legionary. ;) Their ability to rally and reform on their own is the stuff of legends.

In contrast, their arch enemy, the Wachovian First Line squad, doesn't seem to know when to quit. Famous for their die-in-place tactics, and suicidal rushes, Wachovian Infantry seldom break under fire. The Belgian expat mercenaries who lead them are equally ruthless.

View attachment 2126
Well done Chris! When do the Nationality Dice hit the market? :)

And on that note I think this thread has officially gone off the rails.
 
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RandyT0001

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Well done Chris! When do the Nationality Dice hit the market? :)

And on that note I think this thread has officially gone off the rails.
Ah, but what is really important is, like hands, Latveria, has bigger guage railroads, which the women love to ride, compared to Wachovia's small, narrow guage. :nod:
 

von Marwitz

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Ah, but what is really important is, like hands, Latveria, has bigger guage railroads, which the women love to ride, compared to Wachovia's small, narrow guage. :nod:
Pah! The Latverians have always been braggards with nothing much to show for it. Bigger gauge railroads they have, but being inept and corrupt as they are, the only railway line worth mentioning runs from their captial inland to the principal seaport on the coast.

The ingenious Wachovians, on the other side, have realized the importance of railroads decades, not to say almost two generations before the Latverians. They have established a railway network that connects all places of importance. And they managed to do so without much support from abroad, which was also the reason that they decided to develop it as a narrow gauge.

This narrow gauge railway network finally enabled the Wachovians to put on hold the notorious intrusions and cattle thefts by the Latverians because they could now concentrate forces quickly to face or cut off the intruders. The labor forced from the countless captive Latverians in the Wachovian mines and quarries has gone a long way to develop the Wachovian economy and to teach the Latverians their place. :readit:

von Marwitz
 

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Nineteen Kilo

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In order not to derail another thread over the matter of railway gauges, German mediators have taken the initiative to discuss the Latverian - Wachovian Conflict at another place - right here:

http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/the-latverian-wachovian-conflict.131484/

Maybe some of you can shed more light on the emnity between the two peoples unremittingly simmering far in the backyard of the greater powers.

von Marwitz
There was no need to start another thread vM, this one is already a train wreck (much like rail crossing at the border of Latveria & Wachovia).
 

Philippe D.

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IMHO, immunity to Cowering is much, much more than the small difference it will make on a single shot. It means you know your squad and MG, on the defense, will be able to lay a Fire Lane, and also get two shots (First, then Subsequent First/Final Fire). Even a single leader stacked with a Cowering-capable squad cannot ensure this; and the probability of Cowering in the first two shots is 11/36, or 30.5% - far from negligible.

Still, it's hard to beat the ability to self-rally, which will let you split your brokies instead of converging all to the same hex because you only have so many leaders available.
 

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IMHO, immunity to Cowering is much, much more than the small difference it will make on a single shot. It means you know your squad and MG, on the defense, will be able to lay a Fire Lane, and also get two shots (First, then Subsequent First/Final Fire). Even a single leader stacked with a Cowering-capable squad cannot ensure this; and the probability of Cowering in the first two shots is 11/36, or 30.5% - far from negligible.
I agree that there are six ways to Cower every time you roll the dice (16.7%). However, if you roll double sixes on your first shot with an MG you have bigger problems to contend with than Cowering. (This brings the probability of Cowering having an impact on fire down to 13.9%.) And unless the FP strength of a given attack is north of 20 FP, rolling double fives will often have the same net effect on the target as rolling 6,4 will, namely none. Let's split the difference and say that the real probability of Cowering having a measurable impact on your first shot is closer to 12.5% (13.9 - 11.1).

Granted, if you Cower on your first shot, you lose the ability to lay a Firelane, but you do not lose the ability to SFF entirely. Adjacent and same-hex fire opportunities remain. (There is a way to virtually guarantee a Firelane is laid without the risk of Cowering, although malfunction remains a possibility. This requires some cooperation from your opponent, and the presence of vehicles to work, however.)

Medrow also pointed out that in most circumstances the net effect of most Cowering results is negligible. On FP attacks greater than 2 FP, the probability that a unit with a ML of 7 will survive an attack unharmed and unpinned is only 3 % greated than if the attack was resolved at the next higher column on the IFT. IOW, immunity to Cowering seldom changes the net result of an attack greater than 4 FP.

Cowering remains a problem for Inexperienced MMC, but then these troops often suffer from a paucity of leaders too.

The bottom line is that fire discipline, more than anything else, matters most. Even units immune to Cowering can quickly lose their ability to SFF when a wiley opponent manages to maneuvre a unit (broken, or otherwise) close to them, or uses other means of invoking Target Selection Limits on the DEFENDER.
 

Philippe D.

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Granted, if you Cower on your first shot, you lose the ability to lay a Firelane, but you do not lose the ability to SFF entirely. Adjacent and same-hex fire opportunities remain.
Sure - as Final Protective Fire. Which does have its uses, but whenever I'm planning some defensive shots with a few units, I tend to keep FPF as an option to the "if I really, really need it" level, unless I'm firing Elite Russians from a Red Barricades Factory.
 

BattleSchool

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Sure - as Final Protective Fire.
Yup.

Overall I agree with you that Medrow did not explore the big-picture effect of Cowering on play, in particular, the consequences of being marked with a Final Fire counter during DFF. The impact of Cowering on attacks that occur in the PFPh, DFPh, and AFPh is relatively straightforward, the knock-on effects of Cowering during DFF much less so.

Immunity to Cowering invariably provides British First Line and Elite MMC with more flexibility in how they approach DFF. However, granting the Latverians immunity to Cowering would, IMO, be of less significance in those scenarios where the Latverians are on the attack. YCMMV
 
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