Must all "forces" enter?

[jasperdog3329]

Must a player bring all "forces" specified by a scenario onto the board? I know the rule says yes but I am wondering about the validity of Mark Nixon's article in I believe the '96 Annual reviewing the CdG scenarios. For one scenario (78 Encounter at Cornimont?) Mark considered the motorcycles to not be a "force" for the purposes of the rule and preferred to enter his infantry on foot to reduce their vulnerability. He considered the fact that he did this during playtesting and others didn't to be a major factor in adjusting the play balance too much in favour of the Germans.

 

[ross]

I know this doesn't answer your question (and I haven't read the Mark Nixon scenario analysis), but I think the German player loses too much if he doesn't use the Motorcycles in this scenario. I won this as the German player by taking advantage of the high mobility of the motorcycles and esp. using those Armored Cars to freeze out the French MG nests. Try to send an AC up to the board 2 hilltop to force the early exit of those French autocanons.

Besides, motorcyles are a blast to play; just remember to review the D15 rules and keep in mind that motorcycle Riders are not subject to FFMO/FFNAM (D15.1).

 

[Robin Reeve]

I think the German player loses too much if he doesn't use the Motorcycles in this scenario.

The problem Mark Nixon underlined is that a well placed MG can easily cover the enty of cycles...
Though they are not subject to FFMO/FFNAM, they are still very vulnerable to such fire...
I had the same impression as Mr Nixon before I read his article... and I was annoyed because of the obligation to have everybody enter as asked by scenario. So I have the same question as the one that governs this thread. :crosseye:

 

[ross]

The problem Mark Nixon underlined is that a well placed MG can easily cover the enty of cycles...

IIRC, it isn't possible for the French to interdict the German entry hexes (on board 2) because one of the SSRs places woods across an entire hill mass, which effectively screens the entry hexes from the French. However, the French can command the roads leading into the village, so the German player must deploy his Riders as much as possible, then send out HS-sized motorcycle gangs (for fun, name them after biker gangs) to soak up fire and expose French MG nests.

 

[CHERDE]

A 2.5 Must all "forces" enter?

I just want to come back to the question

"Must a player bring all "forces" specified by a scenario onto the board?"

Not wanting to judge the Cornimont situation - one can imagine situations where a player doesnt want to bring in:

infantry/AFV (to deny VP to an enemy)

SW (to prevent capture of the enemy)

means of transport (eg. horses, bicycles, sledges) (to prevent enemy capture and usage, to avoid detrimental drm)?

How to answer this?

 

[ross]

I just want to come back to the question


Not wanting to judge the Cornimont situation - one can imagine situations where a player doesnt want to bring in:

infantry/AFV (to deny VP to an enemy)

SW (to prevent capture of the enemy)

means of transport (eg. horses, bicycles, sledges) (to prevent enemy capture and usage, to avoid detrimental drm)?

How to answer this?

sorry for hijacking this thread, so I'll try to answer your questions

In general, I don't think one _must_ use all of his OB-given offboard forces, but consider this Q&A I found:
A2.5 & A26.221 Are units that fail to enter "eliminated" for purposes of CVP, or VC in general?
A. Both. [Letter86]
86) Bruce Probst to Perry Cocke and reply, posted to the ASLML 7 April 2001

Keep in mind that the aforementioned scenario ("Encounter at Cornimont") does have a CVP cap the Germans cannot exceed. Of course, a motorcycle by itself has no CVP value (A26.212) which leads back to the original question. However, when a scenario grants certain weapons/vehicles/infantry, why not use them? They're listed for a reason (generally the reason is that they were present in the historical action). But whatever the reason, if I'm granted unique weapons/vehicles/infantry (such as motorcyles) in the OB, then I'm using them--mostly for the fun factor alone.

 

[Robin Reeve]

Mark was not as dumb as that

IIRC, it isn't possible for the French to interdict the German entry hexes

Read Mark Nixon's analysis (Annual 96, pp. 58-61) : the French HMG with 8-1 placed in 41O8 can hit 2DD3 with 2FP leaving 1 resid FP... with a -1 DRMvs cycles, this can send them to Valhalla more often than one could believe.
No way getting off the road before DD3 : woods border it on both sides...
"Any player who insists they must enter will delay the attack by half turn while German personnel are forced to dismount and cancel plans for Double Time movement on Turn 1 or, more likely, simply convince German that board 2 road no matter what" (p. 60)

 

[ross]

Read Mark Nixon's analysis (Annual 96, pp. 58-61) : the French HMG with 8-1 placed in 41O8 can hit 2DD3 with 2FP leaving 1 resid FP... with a -1 DRMvs cycles, this can send them to Valhalla more often than one could believe.
No way getting off the road before DD3 : woods border it on both sides...
"Any player who insists they must enter will delay the attack by half turn while German personnel are forced to dismount and cancel plans for Double Time movement on Turn 1 or, more likely, simply convince German that board 2 road no matter what" (p. 60)

Yes, but 2dd3 isn't the "entry" hex; the Germans enter on/adjacent to 2gg6. I'll have to check out my old logfiles to recall what my French opponent did for D1F in that opening German MPh. I seem to recall losing some motorcycles units in the first MPh (some to direct attacks, others to residual--the dreaded double whammy due to failing the Bail-out NMC), but I was able to bring on the bulk of my forces without too much trouble.

btw, ROAR shows this as F19/G32 right now...

 

[CHERDE]

Supply the enemy?

@ross

Imagine You have reinforcements consisting of 4 conscript HS with MGs, FTs and DCs to bring in. All along the allowed entry hexes (OG) theres concealed enemy stealthy infantry.

The q+a calls You to sacrifice the men or to give the enemy directly 4 CVP.

The says nothing about the SW.

But of couse the side with the reinforcements would like to chance the elimination of the conscripts and would like to deny the enemy their SW by entering the conscripts and leave the SW offboard (dropping SW/equipment offboard?).

The side with the stealthy concealed of course wants to rack up 4 VP without firing (concealment loss,SAN, B#) or a fight with a chance to get the SW.


It is better to play for fun alone - but some play also to win. Stealing equipment from the enemy can also be fun.
c

 

[ross]

@ross

Imagine You have reinforcements consisting of 4 conscript HS with MGs, FTs and DCs to bring in. All along the allowed entry hexes (OG) theres concealed enemy stealthy infantry.

The q+a calls You to sacrifice the men or to give the enemy directly 4 CVP.

The says nothing about the SW.

But of couse the side with the reinforcements would like to chance the elimination of the conscripts and would like to deny the enemy their SW by entering the conscripts and leave the SW offboard (dropping SW/equipment offboard?).

The side with the stealthy concealed of course wants to rack up 4 VP without firing (concealment loss,SAN, B#) or a fight with a chance to get the SW.


It is better to play for fun alone - but some play also to win. Stealing equipment from the enemy can also be fun.
c

ok, I guess we're going hypothetical here now...

First off, what lame brain commander is going to have conscripts in possession of FTs and DCs (as only Elite units can use such SWs w/out severe penalties). Second, I gotta wonder what the scenario designer was thinking when he proposed such a deplorable gaming situation (in this hypothetical scenario). This kind of reminds me of the convoy of death that occurs in the first CG Date (17N) in the ABTF CG III; a smart British player will easily slaughter that poor German truck convoy for super easy CVP.

Anyway, for the situation you described above, if I were truly restricted in entry area and entry turn, then yes I probably would leave those sad-sack units (and their valuable SWs) offboard and eat the CVP. But only after thoroughly exploring all other options for such units (for remember, you can always wait until the Advance Phase to enter _infantry_ units onboard, preferably keeping them concealed by advancing into concealment terrain).

 

[CHERDE]

sadsackers dont supply enemy but kill

And I would enter the sadsack units in the Advance Phase into CC without the SW, hope for some enemy casualties caused by the sadsack units and hope that they only provide the enemy with the 4 CVP they would give if left offboard.

Of course leave the SW offboard to avoid supplying the enemy even a lowly LMG.