Multiple Questions

Darkman

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Me and my friend have been learning re-learning the ASL rules and are playing our way through Scenario C from the classic (Streets of Stalingrad). Were having a pretty good time of it too (half of my german SMC's are wounded, a 8-0 ldr has turned heroic and battle hardened twice, my HMG broke and then went disabled on the first turn, my flame throwers couldnt make a box of matches light up, and his commisar has personally cleared out an entire building for me-we figure he's shot soo many of his own he's out of ammo and just clubbing guys to death now). But a few questions have come up that we arn't sure about.

1) A squad carrying a flame thrower suffers a -1 IFT modifier when shot at. How is that done exactly? Is the entire stack affected or does it just apply to the MMC with the FT? That is suppose you get a 1KIA against a stack witht he FT, but the -1 modifer would make it a 2KIA. Does that mean the whole stack is 2KIA? or is it the FT MMC is gone for sure and just one of the other units has a KIA?

2) The germans can delay the entry of their armor by one turn to allow them greater latitude in their entry hex(s). Does this mean they can bring on some of their armor on the first turn allowed, with the rest coming in next turn at the other locations? Or must all their armor enter on the same turn at the same entry point?

3) If units enter a building location but are all broken and retreat away; do they get control credit for the hexes they were in? Do they at least take control status away from the former owner of that location?

4) In the ASLRB it states that SMC's are elite, for ELR purposes does that mean their ELR is 5 even if their forces have a lower ELR?

Not really a rules question but I was wondering about a couple of other things: Does anybody have any hints on how to remember to notice when SAN is rolled? Is battle field integrity worth the time to monitor? Doesn't the short duration of MMC smoke seem sooo short it's not worth doing?

Lastly, does anybody have any comments on the rule of checking for special ammo only as you fire. It just seems like such a big pill to swallow for game play convience that you don't know which tank (or if even any of them) has special ammo. I am all for fog of war rules, but that just seems too unbelievable. I know from my own limited military time that knowing who had what was a major thing to keep track of.

If anybody has any help on these points it will be most appreciated.
 

Brian W

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Darkman said:
1) A squad carrying a flame thrower suffers a -1 IFT modifier when shot at. How is that done exactly? Is the entire stack affected or does it just apply to the MMC with the FT? That is suppose you get a 1KIA against a stack witht he FT, but the -1 modifer would make it a 2KIA. Does that mean the whole stack is 2KIA? or is it the FT MMC is gone for sure and just one of the other units has a KIA?
The FT MMC suffers a 2KIA (i.e. it's dead), while the rest of the stack suffers a 1KIA (random selection to determine who dies). BTW, don't stack unless it is absolutly necessary.


Darkman said:
2) The germans can delay the entry of their armor by one turn to allow them greater latitude in their entry hex(s). Does this mean they can bring on some of their armor on the first turn allowed, with the rest coming in next turn at the other locations? Or must all their armor enter on the same turn at the same entry point?.
I don't have the scenario so I don't know. I would guess that you have to bring them all on the same turn.

Darkman said:
3) If units enter a building location but are all broken and retreat away; do they get control credit for the hexes they were in? Do they at least take control status away from the former owner of that location?.
If upon entering the building there are no armed enemy units in the building they gain control of the building. If upon entering the ground floor hex there are no armed enemy units in that hex they gain control of the hex. If upon entering the location there are no armed enemy units in that location they gain control of that location. Even if they break immediatly after entering the building/hex/location.

Darkman said:
4) In the ASLRB it states that SMC's are elite, for ELR purposes does that mean their ELR is 5 even if their forces have a lower ELR?.
No, SMC share the same ELR as the printed ELR.

Darkman said:
Not really a rules question but I was wondering about a couple of other things: Does anybody have any hints on how to remember to notice when SAN is rolled? Is battle field integrity worth the time to monitor? Doesn't the short duration of MMC smoke seem sooo short it's not worth doing?.
Practice for the SAN's. I don't like BI and I think few people use those rules. Smoke can be very powerful when crossing open ground, as well as an offensive weapon when you have WP grenades.
[/i]
 

SamB

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The way I remember SAN is to put a ridiculously large pair of dice beside the table.... With the SAN numbers up...

You could also use playing cards, e.g. a 4 of spades could remind you that your SAN is 4, and a 3 of hearts would remind you that your opponent's SAN is 3. Some guys actually print special cards for this purpose. ;)

My opinion would be that the armor all enters the same turn. This is based on the fact that it doesn't say that some / all / none may enter on a given turn. In other words, it doesn't specifically say you can enter on multple turns. (It says the armor enters during the German turn 3 movement phase. this normally indicates that the armor must all enter on turn 3 - not turn 3 or later). Then it states that entry can be delayed on turn, etc.... but this doesn't change the fact that the armor must enter together.

Sam
 

Anonymous

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> If upon entering the building there are no armed enemy units in the
> building they gain control of the building

Isn't mopping up required even if its obvious there's no HIP units?

The rules (at least my ancient ones) seem to imply that

i) you have to be the last to visit every location in a building (every hex of every floor)
OR
ii) mop-up to control a building.

Any clarifications much appreciated. The building control rule in the original Rule book is a little ambiguous.
 

Fred Ingram

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Mopping up is not necessary if there are no HIP units left in the game. Once you satisfy the building control rules, it is your building (although if there were HIP units then you could only be sure it was yours at the end of the game - where the HIP units are revealed and you find out the good or bad news).

Mopping up also helps eliminate any broken units in the buidling (which could be a big problem in large buildings)

Essentially, building control means you have to eliminate or capture all enemy forces from that building (by whatever means including mopping up). even a wounded broken 6+1 leader in the building will deny you control.

Once you gain control, then the onus is on your opponent with the same restrictions.
 

SamB

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Fred's post above may not have made it crystal clear....

Mopping up insn't needed, and this is in the new (v2) rule book. There was also a "Question & Answer" for v1 that made this clear.

Sam
 

peterk1

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Hi Sam & Fred,

Thanks for the clarification. Found it in the Q & A. Much better!

BTW, I was browsing through some scenarios the other day and I found the phrase "undisputed control" in one of the victory conditions (I think it was a BV one). This has to be a typo right? There's no such thing as "disputed control", right?
 

SamB

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You also sometimes see "complete control" or "undisputed control" or some such...

These terms are not defined in ASL. When I was getting ready to play one I sent a note to Perry. His reply was that "building control" should be used.

I suspect that at least in some cases, this was not the intent of the scenario designers, but the "unofficial" word is to use building control. Note that building control makes "To the Last Man" even more unbalanced. :)

Sam
 

Jazz

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Darkman said:
4) In the ASLRB it states that SMC's are elite, for ELR purposes does that mean their ELR is 5 even if their forces have a lower ELR?
.
Being Elite is not the same as underlined morale (which is what is usually, but not always, associated with ML 5). They are elite for things like FT and DC usage. They are also elite for HOB results.

Darkman said:
Not really a rules question but I was wondering about a couple of other things: Does anybody have any hints on how to remember to notice when SAN is rolled? Is battle field integrity worth the time to monitor? Doesn't the short duration of MMC smoke seem sooo short it's not worth doing?
.
Usually, if my opponent is rolling low enough for my SAN, I'm desperate for some good news. I don't often forget.....

Darkman said:
Lastly, does anybody have any comments on the rule of checking for special ammo only as you fire. It just seems like such a big pill to swallow for game play convience that you don't know which tank (or if even any of them) has special ammo. I am all for fog of war rules, but that just seems too unbelievable. I know from my own limited military time that knowing who had what was a major thing to keep track of.
Oh boy, I feel a reality "discussion" coming on......
 

Darkman

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Oh boy, I feel a reality "discussion" coming on......
Not so much a reality discussion Jazz as a realistic to be worth playing discussion. I don't have a problem with most of the abstractions ASL uses to recreate the battles that make up the game ASL. But if a rules abstractions take too big of a leap it works against the enjoyment of the game. And that is my problem with that rule. Like I sad in my original post, it just seemed like a pretty big pill to swallow. Even the PF rule for german infantry is easier for me to take than this rule on not knowing which tank has what ammo load. I could take that uncertainty in a scenario where it was a SSR because of special circumstances. BUT, to say that commanding officers never know what their forces are loaded with before hand in all circumstances just seems to push the edge of acceptable abstraction too far.
 

Jazz

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Darkman said:
Oh boy, I feel a reality "discussion" coming on......
Not so much a reality discussion Jazz as a realistic to be worth playing discussion. I don't have a problem with most of the abstractions ASL uses to recreate the battles that make up the game ASL. But if a rules abstractions take too big of a leap it works against the enjoyment of the game. And that is my problem with that rule. Like I sad in my original post, it just seemed like a pretty big pill to swallow. Even the PF rule for german infantry is easier for me to take than this rule on not knowing which tank has what ammo load. I could take that uncertainty in a scenario where it was a SSR because of special circumstances. BUT, to say that commanding officers never know what their forces are loaded with before hand in all circumstances just seems to push the edge of acceptable abstraction too far.
I guess it does not bother me much for the following reasons. You mention that you have military experience, and that is of value for talking about the game.

I contend though (and it is only a contention, not stated as "fact") that the military experience that anyone young enough to be on this list has, is of limited value in evaluating a game about WWII. I think the level of information available to a modern commander, is dramatically more information than the commanders did back in the days of yore. I also think that as a commander, as the crap comes at you from all sides, enemy and friendly, you start to remember even lless. The most I would concede is that you know what you asked them to load. You might even have known what did get loaded in general terms, but you may or may not remember in detail.

I suppose I would fall on the side of knowing what you have exactly by SSR (instead of the other way around). I think this would be valid for a set-piece attack (ala-Montgomery) and not in a day-to-day combat situation.

Just one man's opinion....and I have been wrong before.

I guess I just have a pet peeve about modern people and their ideas about history. There seems to be a tendancy to project our current ability to procure and communicate information into the past. I think that many people today would be very surprised at the low level of communication and information capability available to folks 60-odd years ago.

OK, I'm better know. Thank you....
 

apbills

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I would go so far as to say - you knew what each tank had right after you loaded. Many scenarios are depicting very small, limited actions during the course of a day's fighting. The ammo depletion rules abstract the idea that your tanks may have used some of that ammo prior to this engagement. In some case you may not have received a fresh load of ammo for some time due to supply limitations.

All of this detail is abstracted so that you don't have to have lists of ammo for each tank or vehicle in your force. Way too much detail (record keeping) compared to the current abstraction. What does it buy you in terms of game play? IMO, nothing to very little at best. The entire system is based on probability, not known facts. Remember, a single TH roll does not mean just one shot was fired, it means the gun is game terms has the ability to roll once to see if it hit the target. ROF, multiple hits, etc. are rules that increase this probability (both of TH and TK) based on various parameters of the gun and weapon system. All of it is a complete abstraction.
 

Perry

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SamB said:
You also sometimes see "complete control" or "undisputed control" or some such...

These terms are not defined in ASL. When I was getting ready to play one I sent a note to Perry. His reply was that "building control" should be used.

I suspect that at least in some cases, this was not the intent of the scenario designers, but the "unofficial" word is to use building control. Note that building control makes "To the Last Man" even more unbalanced. :)

Sam
It is possible that the scenario designers had a different intent, but I see no way to divine what that might have been.

If they had wanted to say "devoid of enemy units" or "devoid of enemy MMC" or "devoid of unbroken enemy units" or "devoid of Good Order enemy units" etc., they could have used any of those phrases instead of the one they did.

And how is TtLM worse off with building control? It's not like the Germans are counterattacking. Once the Russians take over control of a building, that's pretty much it for that buidling. Don't cha think?

....Perry
 

SamB

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Perry's picking on me!!!! :?

I think control AND "devoid of enemy units" is much harder for the Russians to accomplish than simply control of the building.

Once the Russians have control of the building, its impossible for the Germans to take control back (barring an incompetent Russian). But slipping a squad across the street to get back into the building is "do-able".

IMO, YMMV

Sam "Hey! I'm famous as the guy Perry picks on!!!" Belcher
:p
 

Anonymous

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Control of building

Ok, dumb question came to mind reading these posts. For multi hex (unoccupied but owned by the other guy) buildings, do you need to enter each hex to control the building, or do you control it when you enter just one hex? :?
 

da priest

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Re: Control of building

Hobitt said:
Ok, dumb question came to mind reading these posts. For multi hex (unoccupied but owned by the other guy) buildings, do you need to enter each hex to control the building, or do you control it when you enter just one hex? :?
When you enter one Location it is yours.
 

Robin Reeve

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You just need to enter one hex (bypass NA).
About control, broiken units cannot gain control of a building...
 

Hubbs5

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It also must be done by a MMC. SMC cannot gain control of a building but I believe they can maintain control of a building they already controlled.
 
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