Moving Vehicular Target status and Immobilization

Fetmun

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D8.4 states: TARGET STATUS: A vehicle bogged/immobilized during a MPh due to having entered-a-new-hex/used-VBM/been-in-Motion in that MPh is considered a moving target (C.8) for the rest of that MPh.

D9.3 states:
AFV/WRECK TEM: All Infantry in the same Location with a wreck/friendly-AFV/abandoned-enemy-AFV are entitled to a +1 TEM unless one or more of the following applies: they are being fired on from within that same Location; the wreck is burning (10.3); that AFV/wreck is entrenched (B27.52), Dug-In (9.54), or at a different level than the Infantry in its Depression hex, or that AFV would be subject to TH Case J (a Stopped AFV or wreck which has moved/was in Motion during the current Player Turn’s MPh provides a +1 TEM during all Phases following the AFPh) if at that moment it were to be fired on by ordnance (C.8).

C.8 states: MOVING VEHICULAR TARGET: A vehicle is considered a moving target for To Hit/Effects purposes only if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, or used VBM (D2.3), or began its MPh in Motion (D2.4), or is currently in Motion. A Stopped (D2.13) vehicle is also treated as a moving target if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, used VBM, or began its MPh in Motion.
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That is a bit confusing. Could someone please answer my questions:

Situation #1: Your AFV begins MPh in Motion, moves 1 hex, Defensive First Fired upon by AT which results in Immobilization of your AFV. It is clear to me that for the rest of that MPh AFV is considered Moving Vehicular Target even its Immobilized. But please see question below for the following phases.
Question: Is it correct to state that an AFV would not be considered Moving Vehicular Target (C.8) (in according to the D8.4) during DFPh, AFPh etc. because it was immobilized during its MPh, and so it will give +1 TEM / Hindrance if applicable? If instead an AFV would been Immobilized during DFPh it would be considered “moving” during all Phases following the AFPh and would not give +1 TEM / Hindrance, correct?

Situation #2: It is your opponent Turn, PFPh; he is calling an FFE:1 OBA which results in Immobilization of your AFV which was is in Motion (by the way, no DRM for IFT as I could say). You must remove from your AFV a Motion counter and replace it with Immobilized counter.
Question: Is it correct to state that immediately after that Immobilization result your previously “in Motion” Vehicle would not be considered Moving Vehicular Target for all subsequent shots? Moreover, it will immediately provide + 1 TEM / Hindrance if applicable, correct?
 

Vinnie

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Q1. Once you start the movement phase in motion or enter a new hex, you are a moving target all the way through to the rout phase.
Q2. Correct. It did not start the movement phase in motion.
 

Eagle4ty

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D8.4 states: TARGET STATUS: A vehicle bogged/immobilized during a MPh due to having entered-a-new-hex/used-VBM/been-in-Motion in that MPh is considered a moving target (C.8) for the rest of that MPh.

D9.3 states:
AFV/WRECK TEM: All Infantry in the same Location with a a wreck/friendly-AFV/abandoned-enemy-AFV are entitled to a +1 TEM unless one or more of the following applies: they are being fired on from within that same Location; the wreck is burning (10.3); that AFV/wreck is entrenched (B27.52), Dug-In (9.54), or at a different level than the Infantry in its Depression hex, or that AFV would be subject to TH Case J (a Stopped AFV or wreck which has moved/was in Motion during the current Player Turn’s MPh provides a +1 TEM during all Phases following the AFPh) if at that moment it were to be fired on by ordnance (C.8).

C.8 states: MOVING VEHICULAR TARGET: A vehicle is considered a moving target for To Hit/Effects purposes only if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, or used VBM (D2.3), or began its MPh in Motion (D2.4), or is currently in Motion. A Stopped (D2.13) vehicle is also treated as a moving target if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, used VBM, or began its MPh in Motion.
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That is a bit confusing. Could someone please answer my questions:

Situation #1: Your AFV begins MPh in Motion, moves 1 hex, Defensive First Fired upon by AT which results in Immobilization of your AFV. It is clear to me that for the rest of that MPh AFV is considered Moving Vehicular Target even its Immobilized. But please see question below for the following phases.
Question: Is it correct to state that an AFV would not be considered Moving Vehicular Target (C.8) (in according to the D8.4) during DFPh, AFPh etc. because it was immobilized during its MPh, and so it will give +1 TEM / Hindrance if applicable? If instead an AFV would been Immobilized during DFPh it would be considered “moving” during all Phases following the AFPh and would not give +1 TEM / Hindrance, correct?
Incorrect in both instances. For part I of the question the vehicle had been In-Motion AND entered a new hex thus it is considered a moving target throughout the MPh, DFPh & AFPh and does not offer a +1 TEM/Hindrance during these phases [EXC: Infantry using Armored Assault (D9.31)]. There is no conflict here between D8.4 and C.8 because D8.4 lists C.8 as part of its rule and addresses its condition during the MPh only. It simply does not continue with all of the conditions of C.8 for the sake of redundancy/non-applicability during the MPh. D9.3 just goes the additional step to include effects of wrecks but also notes that he circumstance are the same as those of a "...friendly-AFV/abandoned-enemy-AFV" in later phases. Therefore for Part II of your question D9.3 covers in which phases a "wreck/friendly-AFV/abandoned-enemy-AFV" does present a +1 TEM/Hinderance (i.e during the RtPh, APh, CCPh and exceptions as noted).

Situation #2: It is your opponent Turn, PFPh; he is calling an FFE:1 OBA which results in Immobilization of your AFV which was is in Motion (by the way, no DRM for IFT as I could say). You must remove from your AFV a Motion counter and replace it with Immobilized counter.
Question: Is it correct to state that immediately after that Immobilization result your previously “in Motion” Vehicle would not be considered Moving Vehicular Target for all subsequent shots? Moreover, it will immediately provide + 1 TEM / Hindrance if applicable, correct?
Incorrect, as C.8 goes on to state, "Thus a Non-Stopped vehicle is a moving, Mobile (D.7) vehicle that has not expended a Stop MP (D2.13) since its last Start MP (D2.12) expenditure." Exceptions noted are also included, "Expenditure of MP for other purposes (such as loading/unloading, Bog Removal attempts, or VCA changes) do not by themselves qualify a vehicle as a moving target although they too allow Defensive First Fire shots vs it." Contrary to what Vinny has posted above, the entire rule applies and not just the part about being during "its" MPh. As per the response to the above Situation #1 as well, it will be considered a Moving target throughout the opponent's player turns PFPh, MPh, DFPh and AFPh and will only provide a +1 TEM/Hindrance during his player turn's RtPh, APh & CCPh (D9.3) [EXC: if it had been in VBM].
 

klasmalmstrom

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Regarding C.8 - and Immobilized vehicle is not Mobile anymore, so I don't think it can be Non-Stopped.
 

Sparafucil3

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Regarding C.8 - and Immobilized vehicle is not Mobile anymore, so I don't think it can be Non-Stopped.
It's actually funny IMO. C8 says an immobilized vehicle can't spend a Start MP but neither bog or immobilization specifically say the vehicle STOPS. Add that to C.8's "Thus a Non-Stopped vehicle is a moving, Mobile (D.7) vehicle that has not expended a Stop MP (D2.13) since its last Start MP (D2.12) expenditure." and we have this weird world within the rules where a person could conclude that a vehicle is both immobile and non-Stopped.

I find two Q&A that are relevant:
Q&A said:
A22.612, C.8, & C6.1 During the friendly PFPh a Gun fires at a Motion enemy vehicle and immobilizes it, keeping ROF. It fires again at the now stopped enemy vehicle. Does the Case J DRM now apply?
A. Yes.
This one is interesting because it get's the point that the immobilized vehicle is now "Stopped", although it is the petitioner stating it's stopped and not Perry.

Q&A said:
D8.3 What should the status be of a Bogged vehicle that expends its entire MP allotment or more becoming freed at the end of its movement phase? Stopped or in Motion?
A. Motion, since it didn’t expend a Stop MP.
This one is interesting because of the Motion since it didn't spend a Stop MP which can be confounding to someone trying to understand the rules.

Still, in the end, common sense would say "Immobilized/Bogged" vehicles are Stopped. It would be better if the index defined "Stopped". It's asking a lot of newer players to pick up on the "Mobile" above and realize that being "Immobile" negates Mobile, which in turn, negates being Non-Stopped, which in turn, makes the vehicle Stopped. I don't blame the person for asking the original question. That's a lot to unpack in one sentence buried in the "dot" section of Chapter C. JMO. YMMV. -- jim
 

Actionjick

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It's actually funny IMO. C8 says an immobilized vehicle can't spend a Start MP but neither bog or immobilization specifically say the vehicle STOPS. Add that to C.8's "Thus a Non-Stopped vehicle is a moving, Mobile (D.7) vehicle that has not expended a Stop MP (D2.13) since its last Start MP (D2.12) expenditure." and we have this weird world within the rules where a person could conclude that a vehicle is both immobile and non-Stopped.

I find two Q&A that are relevant:

This one is interesting because it get's the point that the immobilized vehicle is now "Stopped", although it is the petitioner stating it's stopped and not Perry.


This one is interesting because of the Motion since it didn't spend a Stop MP which can be confounding to someone trying to understand the rules.

Still, in the end, common sense would say "Immobilized/Bogged" vehicles are Stopped. It would be better if the index defined "Stopped". It's asking a lot of newer players to pick up on the "Mobile" above and realize that being "Immobile" negates Mobile, which in turn, negates being Non-Stopped, which in turn, makes the vehicle Stopped. I don't blame the person for asking the original question. That's a lot to unpack in one sentence buried in the "dot" section of Chapter C. JMO. YMMV. -- jim
I think when newer players take on vehicles they are opening a whole new world of ASL but also opening a big can of worms. My advice to players new to vehicles would be to not overthink the rules. Just play and figure out the nitty gritty bits later.
 
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