Moving Crews in Hatten

Fiedler

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No to both.



....Perry

MMP

On October 9, 2018 at 8:36 AM Stefan Fiedler <stefan@xxx,xx> wrote:​
Hi​
1, May a armor leader shift from his original vehiicle to another during refit phase?​
2. May a surviving crew that survived a wreck creation replace the crew of another vehicle. If so must it be the same type as their original vehicle?​
 

nathan brown

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Blast I was going to ask that but I'm getting better at this thing and searched (I hope).

I know its a perry sez but its kooky...like the ranking officer can't take over another guys tank overnight! (reality argument alert)

Looks like Jackpot Jones who had his tank struck out from Under him but survived has run out of luck....and will have to wait until there is an unmanned vehicle for him to enter (because 'spare crews' just have to sit off board....)

trying to work out how to engineer that outcome....fails immobilized task check and bails out/ killed is about the only scenario I can see given no voluntary abandoning for tanks/ HT
 

Andrew Rogers

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Blast I was going to ask that but I'm getting better at this thing and searched (I hope).

I know its a perry sez but its kooky...like the ranking officer can't take over another guys tank overnight! (reality argument alert)

Looks like Jackpot Jones who had his tank struck out from Under him but survived has run out of luck....and will have to wait until there is an unmanned vehicle for him to enter (because 'spare crews' just have to sit off board....)

trying to work out how to engineer that outcome....fails immobilized task check and bails out/ killed is about the only scenario I can see given no voluntary abandoning for tanks/ HT
Nate,

In light of the Perry Sez, my recommendation would be to use the all-powerful 'House Rule' rule; seeing as both sides have armour leaders in Hatten there should not be any objections ....

Andy Rogers

(caveat: if Perry knows where you live, then a House Rule overriding a Perry Sez could be dangerous)
 

Tater

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It's a campaign game (CG)...the answer from Perry is nonsensical for a CG...I would never have even considered asking the question. I have always assumed and will continue to play that vehicle crews (Armor leader or no) can swap vehicles during the ReFit of any CG.
 

Fiedler

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It's a campaign game (CG)...the answer from Perry is nonsensical for a CG...I would never have even considered asking the question. I have always assumed and will continue to play that vehicle crews (Armor leader or no) can swap vehicles during the ReFit of any CG.
A house rule in other words.
 

Swiftandsure

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I am not sure that in real life a crew would swap its tank with anothers' one, excepted for great necessity.
The crewmen organised the interior of their tank with personal belongings (beverages, etc.) and would reluctantly let someone else "dwell" in it.
 

Gordon

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I am not sure that in real life a crew would swap its tank with anothers' one, excepted for great necessity.
The crewmen organised the interior of their tank with personal belongings (beverages, etc.) and would reluctantly let someone else "dwell" in it.
These guys did it ...
9222
 

Paul M. Weir

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Yeah, but that's still an allied T-34 tank with extra heavy lipstick, powder and a wig.
 

Tater

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I am not sure that in real life a crew would swap its tank with anothers' one, excepted for great necessity.
The crewmen organised the interior of their tank with personal belongings (beverages, etc.) and would reluctantly let someone else "dwell" in it.
In general...maybe...but is an AFV platoon/section leader going to remain unhorsed while his unit rides into combat? I don’t think so! By the same token, are you going to leave a more experienced crew afoot while a newbi crew drives in to battle? Probably not? Overall point being that, I don’t think combat decisions on what is best for success is going to take a backseat just because a guy has his girlfriend’s picture stuck to the inside of the turret.
 

Larry

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HF8 AFV crews may not voluntarily abandon ... their non-Immobilized vehicles ....
 

Tater

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HF8 AFV crews may not voluntarily abandon ... their non-Immobilized vehicles ....
Abandonment can only occur during a scenario. Swapping crews during a Refit phase is not technically abandonment.
 

Larry

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Not technically but functionally similar. I see the same rule in RB and would expect the same ruling for RB.
 

Tater

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Not technically but functionally similar. I see the same rule in RB and would expect the same ruling for RB.
No, functionally abandonment only occurs during the MPh and requires all MF.

Swapping crews/AL during the Refit is not abandonment.

The restriction on abandonment for CG/scenarios is to prevent players from using cheap assets (i.e., halftracks) to run behind enemy lines and grabbing strategic locations and/or VC locations. This is not an issue for Refit phase. There is no serious rules sleaze at risk with a Refit phase swap.
 

jrv

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The restriction on abandonment for CG/scenarios is to prevent players from using cheap assets (i.e., halftracks) to run behind enemy lines and grabbing strategic locations and/or VC locations.
I don't think this is established anywhere in the rules. It is a possible and reasonable supposition, but it is not part of the rules. It might be there for a different reason for all you know.

To make my position clear, I have nothing against your house rule, but it is not derived from the rules and the q&a.

JR
 

Tater

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I don't think this is established anywhere in the rules. It is a possible and reasonable supposition, but it is not part of the rules. It might be there for a different reason for all you know.
Yeah, your right, I reviewed the HF8 and, including the exception, pretty much the only vehicles that can't abandon are the tanks and the AA HTs. So, you can still use the HTs to scoot into the backfield and grab locations. So the SSR must be for historical reasons.

To make my position clear, I have nothing against your house rule, but it is not derived from the rules and the q&a.
Well, first off, a Q&A is no better than an HR...until canonized, it still requires mutual agreement by players.

Second, there is a precedent in that during the ReFit phase it never says that SW/Equipment may be freely exchanged between units. So if you use COWTRA to say that crews can't freely swap vehicles during ReFit (HF8 doesn't apply to ReFit) because it doesn't say they can, then also have to say that all your MG's, LATW, mtrs, Guns, etc, have to set-up with the same unit that they ended the previous scenario with. However, no one plays that way because everyone assumes that retained SW (equipment) can be freely exchanged between retained units...vehicles are equipment.

IOW, my so called HR has as much rules validity as the Q&A.
 

Jeff Sewall

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Well, first off, a Q&A is no better than an HR...until canonized, it still requires mutual agreement by players.

Second, there is a precedent in that during the ReFit phase it never says that SW/Equipment may be freely exchanged between units. So if you use COWTRA to say that crews can't freely swap vehicles during ReFit (HF8 doesn't apply to ReFit) because it doesn't say they can, then also have to say that all your MG's, LATW, mtrs, Guns, etc, have to set-up with the same unit that they ended the previous scenario with. However, no one plays that way because everyone assumes that retained SW (equipment) can be freely exchanged between retained units...vehicles are equipment.

IOW, my so called HR has as much rules validity as the Q&A.
On your 1st point, my experience has been that there is an implicit mutual agreement between players to accept all Q&A. The same can't be said for your house rules unless I have previously played in your house.

On your 2nd point, the mechanics of play allow SW/Guns to be "dropped", then repossessed by another unit. An AFV can't "drop" an armor leader; abandonment is the only play method that can accomplish that.
 

Tater

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...my experience has been that there is an implicit mutual agreement between players to accept all Q&A...
That is a total assumption...experience or not...

Even MMP doesn't accept all their own Q&A, when given the chance to incorporate Q&A in the ASLRBv2, many Q&A were left out. If there is ever an ASLRBv3 I feel confident in saying that not all Q&A will be incorporated...will the Q&A in question be incorporated? Probably not since it is related to a CG. Also, a Q&A can't be accepted cart blanch unless everyone has access to the Q&A...and we know that not every ASL player has access to all Q&A.

The same can't be said for your house rules unless I have previously played in your house.
Well, in the case of the Q&A in question, I never had to ask since everyone I have ever play CG with/against also assumed that equipment could be freely exchanged between units during a Refit Phase...so...wrong again.

On your 2nd point, the mechanics of play allow SW/Guns to be "dropped", then repossessed by another unit.
During play, sure...however, there is no step for such action during the ReFit phase.

An AFV can't "drop" an armor leader; abandonment is the only play method that can accomplish that.
Agreed...but then I am not talking about abandonment. I am talking about freely exchanging equipment between units during the ReFit phase. It is not expressly allowed. So if crews can't swap vehicles (equipment) then neither can any other units...unless you want to use an HR.
 

nathan brown

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mmm. Thanks Andy. At risk of firing up the orthodox vs the heretics who have posted since surely a Designer Says trumps a Perry Sez.

Jokes aside I have been thinking on this more and I'm more inclined to agree with Perry

. 4 German Panthers with armour leaders is a scary prospect!.

I think a house rule might have to limit the swap to the same type of vehicle at the least...(familiarity/training) but that runs contrary to what can happen if you do end up with a (different type of) vacant vehicle at the end of a game.
 
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