Moving at Level in Rubbled Building

Kijug

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Here is a picture of a two-story building with three stairwells from board 45:
19620

The 4-5-7 can clearly move from R5h2 into Q5h2. Since there is no 2nd level in P4, the unit cannot move into P4h2. So the other side of the building is inaccessible short of going to the ground level, then move to O4, then up the stairwell.
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Now the question is, with all three stairwells rubbled, can the 4-5-7 move anywhere? Can the 4-5-7 move into Q5h2 (not sure how to play that given the 1/2 building across the hexside) and P4h2 but that is it? Is it stuck for the rest of the game? Can it climb out of the building, then, I suppose?
19622

To put another way, if a multi-hex building has indicated stairwells (white square) that are inaccessible for some reason (e.g., rubble) does that mean the rest of the building is off limits? As opposed to a multi-hex building that only has inherent stairwells.
 

ColinJ

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Kijug,
In the last image, with all the stairwells rubbled, units will be stuck on level 1 or level 2. They can still move along at the level they are on, assuming the building depiction allows it. In the last image, with all the stairwell hexes rubbled, the unit on the second level can move through all the none rubbled level 2 locations, R4/Q5/P4/P3. The same movement restrictions would exist if the unit was on level 1 (buildings with the white square stairwell symbol have no inherent stairwells between level 1 and ground).
Nice pics BTW, almost no shadows.
Colin
 

Kijug

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Follow up question (I’m working on a scenario)... if the building got rubbled with the 4-5-7 in the building as in the third picture, can the other guy ever claim control of the building? How might that work?
 

BattleSchool

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Follow up question (I’m working on a scenario)... if the building got rubbled with the 4-5-7 in the building as in the third picture, can the other guy ever claim control of the building? How might that work?
Yes, as per:

A12.153 MOPPING UP:
During its PFPh, an armed unpinned Good Order Infantry MMC in a multi-hex/multi-level building (Note: each hex [not Location level] of a Rowhouse must be Mopped Up separately) that contains no unconcealed unbroken enemy unit, may declare that it is becoming TI so that it may secure the building, provided it is within two hexes of every ground level Location of that building which it or a friendly unit does not actually Control (26.11). If necessary, two or more units in different hexes may declare Mopping Up simultaneously (e.g., so that between them they can be within two hexes of every ground level Location of that building which their side does not Control). Any hidden enemy unit(s) in the building is immediately placed in view beneath a "?", and all enemy Dummies are removed. Other concealed units remain concealed. If no concealed enemy unit remains, the building is considered secured, all its Locations Controlled, and all broken enemy units therein immediately surrender to units of the ATTACKER's choice inside that building regardless of their proximity. All Fortified Building Locations so Controlled are revealed. Mopping Up can be attempted only once per building per Player Turn but can be attempted even if no stairwell is available to reach upper levels. A rubbled/Blazing building Location is not considered part of a building for Mopping-Up purposes. Once a side employs No-Quarter/Massacre (20.3-.4), it may no longer use Mopping Up.
 

Doug Leslie

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Follow up question (I’m working on a scenario)... if the building got rubbled with the 4-5-7 in the building as in the third picture, can the other guy ever claim control of the building? How might that work?
There is a Q&A on this.

B24.1 says: "A rubbled Location is no longer a building Location". Assume a three-hex building, and that the middle hex of the building is totally rubbled.


    • Is the rubbled Location and hex part of the building for control purposes?
    • Do the two remaining, non-adjacent building hexes belong to the same building for control purposes?
    • Since the two remaining building hexes are not adjacent, are they now treated as two single-story buildings?
    • A. 1) No. 2) Yes. 3) No. {2}
In order to gain control of the building, the 457 has to be eliminated. This could be done the hard way by breaking it three times or the easy way (assuming that no quarter isn't in effect) by breaking it once and then mopping up since there is no requirement for every hex in the building to be accessible for mopping up purposes.

12.153 MOPPING UP: During its PFPh, an armed unpinned Good Order Infantry MMC in a multi-hex/multi-level building (Note: each hex [not Location level] of a Rowhouse must be Mopped Up separately) that contains no unconcealed unbroken enemy unit, may declare that it is becoming TI so that it may secure the building, provided it is within two hexes of every ground level Location of that building which it or a friendly unit does not actually Control (26.11). If necessary, two or more units in different hexes may declare Mopping Up simultaneously (e.g., so that between them they can be within two hexes of every ground level Location of that building which their side does not Control). Any hidden enemy unit(s) in the building is immediately placed in view beneath a "?", and all enemy Dummies are removed. Other concealed units remain concealed. If no concealed enemy unit remains, the building is considered secured, all its Locations Controlled, and all broken enemy units therein immediately surrender to units of the ATTACKER'S choice inside that building regardless of their proximity. All Fortified Building Locations so Controlled are revealed. Mopping Up can be attempted only once per building per Player Turn but can be attempted even if no stairwell is available to reach upper levels. A rubbled/Blazing building Location is not considered part of a building for Mopping-Up purposes. Once a side employs No-Quarter/Massacre (20.3-.4), it may no longer use Mopping Up.

I guess that the guys in the 457 squad would have to jump from the second floor in order to surrender!
 

EagleIV

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A few notes on the third picture in the OP.
  1. Unless they have scaling the 457 is upper level encircled.
  2. If the 457 is broken and the building mopped up, the (now prisoner) 457 will somehow manage to get down to their new guards even though they can't normally move down to the ground level.
 

BattleSchool

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A few notes on the third picture in the OP.
  1. Unless they have scaling the 457 is upper level encircled.
Good point, which makes it easier to break and subsequently eliminate during a Mop Up.

  1. If the 457 is broken and the building mopped up, the (now prisoner) 457 will somehow manage to get down to their new guards even though they can't normally move down to the ground level.
There is a Q&A that kinda supports this.

A12.153 & A20.21
When a building that is being Mopped-Up only contains enemy broken units which cannot surrender as per A20.21 (i.e., SS vs. Russian), do they still surrender when Mopped-Up? What if they’re in an upper-level location?
A. They Surrender (the Surrender limitation is only on RtPh Surrender.). Doesn’t matter. {1}
I think it's best to remember that Mopping Up (A20.23, which refers players to A12.153) is distinct from other other forms of capture such as RtPh surrender (A20.21) and CC (A20.22). Captures that occur as a result of Mopping Up aren't necessarily dependent on adjacency or accessibility to the would-be prisoner. Indeed they are more restrictive in at least one sense, as noted below.

Returning to the OP's last example, if the 4-5-7 was broken, an opposing MMC in P4 or Q5 (but not P3) could (provided NQ is not in effect) declare Mopping Up. In the process the enemy MMC would capture the 4-5-7 and gain Control of the building. Note that the MMC conducting a Mop Up cannot reject the prisoner and declare NQ (A20.3). Some might quibble over the case of a Disrupted unit that is Mopped Up. But I'd argue that the intent of Mopping Up is to take prisoners, not shoot them. Might be worth a Q&A.
 

Eagle4ty

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Barring scaling ability or the introduction of ladder counters, for the 457 the war is over.
Not necessarily. I can't remember the exact scenario but it involved alternating Rubble placement where the Scenario Defender rubbled all the Stairwells in a building then put his main MG defensive unit on an upper level that had access to another hex(es) at that level thus meeting the requirements of setup (A2.9 ...A unit/weaponJ8 may not set up overstacked or in a hex it could not enter during the normal course of play,...") as it could enter those hexes at the upper level. There is also the possibility that a unit could be placed well forward of one's MLR with the same idea of preventing the opposing side to root them out once the position was bypassed and thus used to cut/direct the opponents routs, fire on units from the rear, etc. I've seen this tactic used several times and often to my detriment.
 

Larry

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A2.9, B23.23, & B24.
In pre-game, both sides get to setup rubble counters (B24) per SSR. As such, one side uses their counters to rubble all stairwell
hexes in a multi-story building (B23.23) so that all the stairwells are no longer in play. If that building is within one side’s setup
area, can they elect to set up eligible units in an upper level Location of that building?
A. Yes.

Should A2.9 have errata applied so that it reads “A unit/weapon may not set up overstacked or in a LOCATION it could not enter
during the normal course of play”?
A. We will take that under advisement.
 

Kijug

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Heh, I was looking for a simple answer. I forgot this is ASL...LOL!

Thanks all for the discussion and info.
 

von Marwitz

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Barring scaling ability or the introduction of ladder counters, for the 457 the war is over.
Yes. But...

... theoretically, provided there was a water obstacle close by, the 457 could attempt to jump into the water without Scaling ability, the introduction of ladder counters or the use of parachutes as per E6.1.

von Marwitz
 
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