Move/Advance: ?? vs. ??

[WuWei]

I just want to get my head straight and check if I got the rules right:

Imagine the following situations from the DEFENDER's perspective:

1a) I have concealed/HIP MMC(s) in a location. During the MPh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter tries to move into this location.
I ask the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a real unit.
If he can: I must lose concealment/HIP for one of my units. The enemy is forced back and loses concealment/cloaking.
If he can't: His ?? or cloaking counter is removed.

1b) I have concealed/HIP MMC(s) in a location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
Nothing happens in the APh. The ATTACKER remains concealed. I remain concealed/HIP.
In the CCPh, before the Ambush roll, my HIP unit is placed on board under ?. Dummies are only removed before attack designation. Even though dummies can get ambush, they can't perform ambush withdrawal, because they aren't infantry, so why even bother to roll? Just remove them at the start of the CCPh. (Edit: I just had an idea: The side with the REAL units could perform an ambush withdrawal, and so the dummies could stay in place! So keep the dummies until after the ambush roll if you want that to be a possibility, or voluntarily remove them before ambush to deny your enemy this option!)

1c) I have concealed/HIP MMC(s), but at least one squad, in a fortified building location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter tries to advance into this location.
The fortification is revealed.
I ask the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a real unit.
If he can: I must lose concealment for one of my units. The ATTACKER loses concealment/cloaking and is forced back to his original location.
If he can't: His ?? or cloaking counter is removed.
Question: I guess I also have to momentarily reveal a squad to prove that the ATTACKER really can't advance into the location? Is there are rules reference to this?

1d) I have concealed/HIP halfsquad in a fortified building location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
The fortification is revealed. Nothing else happens in the APh. The ATTACKER remains concealed. I remain concealed/HIP.
In the CCPh, the situation progresses just like in 1b), ie if the ATTACKER only had dummies, they are removed after the ambush roll.

2a) I have a dummy stack in a location. During the MPh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter tries to move into this location.
I ask the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a real unit.
If he can: My dummy stack is removed.
If he can't: His ??/cloaking counter is removed.

2b) I have a dummy stack in a location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
Nothing happens in the APh. In the CCPh, my dummies and his (if they were dummies and not real units) are removed.

2c) I have a dummy stack in a fortified building location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
The fortification is revealed, but nothing else happens in the APh. In the CCPh, my dummies and his (if they were dummies and not real units) are removed.

Did I get this right?

 

[klasmalmstrom]

#1a - IIRC, all your hidden units lose HIP and are placed onboard Concealed. Then you roll Random Selection to see which lose Concealment.

Edit: A12.15:
"...Random Selection is used to determine which of multiple concealed units must lose their concealment, but all hidden Units in the Location must be placed on board beneath a “?” prior to that Random Selection..."


1b - dummy stacks are removed before any Ambush resolution.

ASOP:
8.11B Place onboard beneath a “?” all hidden items, then reveal Strength Factors of all concealed units (eliminating Dummies) (A11.19).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

1c - you only temporarily have to reveal a unit(s) that's keeping the opponent from advancing in - you don't lose Concealment, and neither does the ATTACKER's units just because they can't advance in.

Q&A that handles part of it:
A12.15 & B23.922
There is Concealed squad in a yet unrevealed Fortified Building Location. During the Advance Phase, an enemy Infantry unit
attempts to Advance into this Fortified Building Location. Is it correct, that the Fortified Building Location would be revealed but
the Concealment of the squad in the Fortified Building Location is retained because the attempted entry is happening during the
Advance Phase?
A. The squad would be temporarily revealed to proof its existence and then retain concealment.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

1d) I have concealed/HIP halfsquad in a fortified building location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.

The fortification is revealed. Nothing else happens in the APh. The ATTACKER remains concealed. I remain concealed/HIP.
In the CCPh, the situation progresses just like in 1b), ie if the ATTACKER only had dummies, they are removed after the ambush roll.

I am thinking the FBL is only revealed if the ATTACKER has real unit in his stack - so I think you would need to ask him. If ATTACKER's "?"/Cloaking is only dummies they are removed at the start of the CCPh - see above.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

2a) I have a dummy stack in a location. During the MPh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter tries to move into this location.
I ask the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a real unit.
If he can: My dummy stack is removed.
If he can't: His ??/cloaking counter is removed.

Correct - per A12.15:
"...If the ATTACKER is concealed, the DEFENDER can (before he reveals any unit) force him to momentarily reveal a non-Dummy unit in that stack; if the ATTACKER cannot, his Dummy stack is removed..."

2b) I have a dummy stack in a location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
Nothing happens in the APh. In the CCPh, my dummies and his (if they were dummies and not real units) are removed.

Correct.

2c) I have a dummy stack in a fortified building location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
The fortification is revealed, but nothing else happens in the APh. In the CCPh, my dummies and his (if they were dummies and not real units) are removed.

As per above - I think the FBL is only revealed if the ATTACKER has any real units in his stack.

 

[WuWei]

Thanks! The reference to the ASOP was very helpful in clearing up case 1b)!

Regarding the fortified building locations:
B23.911: "...A Fortified Building is not revealed unit an enemy unit attempts to enter it,...". Since dummies are units, they can reveal fortified buildings.

And I'm not quite sure about the loss of concealment for the ATTACKER in case 1c). I am a little bit confused by B23.922. It starts with talking about "enter" and "MPh or APh" and ends with: "Loss of concealment rules (A12.15) apply even though the Fortified Location cannot be entered." So I thought that those rules would apply also for the APh in this case. But it can be read differently, and I think it makes more sense that way.

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A12.15 does not apply to advance:

"Concealment can also be lost due to attempted enemy movement (not advance) into a concealed unit’s Location. "

 

[WuWei]

Yep, makes sense that way. I was just confused.

 

[WuWei]

Consolidated version:

Imagine the following situations from the DEFENDER's perspective:

1a) I have concealed/HIP MMC(s) in a location. During the MPh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter tries to move into this location.
I ask the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a real unit.
If he can: I must lose concealment/HIP for one of my units, determined by Random Selection. The enemy is forced back and loses concealment/cloaking.
If he can't: His ?? or cloaking counter is removed.

1b) I have concealed/HIP MMC(s) in a location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
Nothing happens in the APh. The ATTACKER remains concealed. I remain concealed/HIP.
In the CCPh, before the Ambush roll, my HIP unit is placed on board under ? and all Dummies are removed. Dummies are only removed before attack designation. Even though dummies can get ambush, they can't perform ambush withdrawal, because they aren't infantry, so why even bother to roll? Just remove them at the start of the CCPh. (Edit: I just had an idea: The side with the REAL units could perform an ambush withdrawal, and so the dummies could stay in place! So keep the dummies until after the ambush roll if you want that to be a possibility, or voluntarily remove them before ambush to deny your enemy this option!)

1c) I have concealed/HIP MMC(s), but at least one squad, in a fortified building location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter tries to advance into this location.
The fortification is revealed.
I ask the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a real unit.
If he can: I must lose concealment for one of my units, determined by Random Selection. The ATTACKER loses concealment/cloaking and is forced back to his original location.
If he can't: His ?? or cloaking counter is removed.

1d) I have concealed/HIP halfsquad in a fortified building location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
The fortification is revealed. Nothing else happens in the APh. The ATTACKER remains concealed. I remain concealed/HIP.
In the CCPh, the situation progresses just like in 1b), ie if the ATTACKER only had dummies, they are removed after the ambush roll.

2a) I have a dummy stack in a location. During the MPh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter tries to move into this location.
I ask the ATTACKER to momentarily reveal a real unit.
If he can: My dummy stack is removed.
If he can't: His ??/cloaking counter is removed.

2b) I have a dummy stack in a location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
Nothing happens in the APh. In the CCPh, my dummies and his (if they were dummies and not real units) are removed.

2c) I have a dummy stack in a fortified building location. During the APh, an enemy ?? or cloaking counter advances into this location.
The fortification is revealed, but nothing else happens in the APh. In the CCPh, my dummies and his (if they were dummies and not real units) are removed.