Motion Vehicle Affects ATT To Hit

[Eagle4ty]

So if I understand this, if a vehicle is hit by an Area Target Type attack but is only hit because of its large or double-large vehicle target size (i.e. if the vehicle had been normal size, it would not have been hit; assume the vehicle is not affected by the attack), then vulnerable PRC are not attacked by a general collateral attack because they do not share the double-large target size and so would not be hit if the only target being attacked because PRC don't have a target size. Is that right?

JR

No, because then the vulnerable PRC would be subject to a General Collateral attack (C2.332 & D.8B...just as if the Vulnerable PRC were the only target being attacked) when the vehicle is hit or even missed for that fact. If using the ATT you do not need to hit the vehicle at all, stationary or moving/motion, to effect the vulnerable PRC with a General Collateral Attack; you simply have to hit the the target hex as ATT and needn't specify (i.e. predesignate) the vehicle as a target, in fact it cannot. However, it may hit the vehicle as well if applying the appropriate TH DRMs (e.g. target size, moving/motion, etc) and would thus effect PRC with a General Collateral Attack also, perhaps even those BU in an OT vehicle if hit by indirect fire [EX: Mortars and OBA].

If not using the ATT (and therefore one must predesignate the vehicle as the target) one must hit the vehicle and must pay all TH DRMs as appropriate to hit the vehicle and effect the vulnerable PRC with a Specific Collateral Attack (D.8A).

 

[mgmasl]

If no hit the vehicle, how is possible to have any effect on PRC vs this vehicle?
I agree for attacks not needing a previous hit but not at all for any attack needing a hit to have any effect vs the vehicle (and its PRC)

 

[Eagle4ty]

If no hit the vehicle, how is possible to have any effect on PRC vs this vehicle?
I agree for attacks not needing a previous hit but not at all for any attack needing a hit to have any effect vs the vehicle (and its PRC)

Because you are using the Area Target Type (C3.33 AREA TARGET TYPE: ...All (including friendly) non-Aerial units in the target hex can be hit (even by WP), except for those immune as per 3.4...; D.8 COLLATERAL ATTACKS: Generally, when a vehicle is in a Location where occupants are subjected to incoming FP or a To Kill DR, that vehicle's Vulnerable PRC can also be affected by that attack. This effect vs Vulnerable PRC is called a Collateral Attack, and can occur in two ways. The first is via an attack that does not have the vehicle as its predesignated target (e.g., Small Arms Fire, OBA, or use of the Infantry or Area Target Type); this type of attack affects the PRC normally (i.e., causes a General Collateral Attack since it applies equally to all occupants of that Location; A7.4) & D.8B GENERAL: When a vehicle is subjected to (but not destroyed, etc. by) FP which is not required to predesignate it as the target, any Vulnerable PRC in/on it are subject to a General Collateral Attack as per D.8 above, but modified normally for range, Hindrances, TEM/CE DRM, etc. — just as if the Vulnerable PRC were the only target being attacked. ,...) and all that is needed is to hit the target area. If this were not the case one would have to hit say a stationary vehicle in a target hex in order to get a hit in the target hex while using ATT. This is simply not true.

• EX: You have a stationary CE StuG IIIB in an OG hex and you're firing ATT from a 82mm mortar. You will get a hit in the hex (area) on a DR 1 greater than it takes to hit the StuG (small target size) and will get an 8FP +2 CE DRM collateral effects vs the crew as long as you hit the hex regardless of the fact you may or may not have also hit the vehicle.

To further clarify this let's say there was also an infantry MMC in the hex. You certainly can't say you must hit the StuG in order to hit the infantry unit! Thus you wouldn't need to hit the vehicle to have a General Collateral effect on any vulnerable PRC on the vehicle (D.8B) either. The same is true for a moving/motion vehicle. You do not need to hit the vehicle nor pay the DRMs to do so to inflict a General Collateral Attack on the vulnerable PRC. ATT does not predesignate the vehicle as the target, but simply must hit the area in order to affect any vulnerable PRC (tough the fact you may have also hit the vehicle is relatively immaterial as either way the vulnerable PRC will take a General Collateral Attack).

 

[klasmalmstrom]

Here is the older thread I was thinking about: http://www.gamesquad.com/forums/index.php?threads/mortar-fire-on-moving-tank-with-riders.152199/#post-1976777

Opinions were divided back then as well. Don't know if any Q&A was submitted.

 

[Mr Incredible]

I take the view that the ATT attacks the hex and will attack every vulnerable unit. The +1/+2 or whatever for a small vehicle/moving vehicle, in my mind allows for and represents a round actually hitting the vehicle.

Now if it does hit the vehicle any vulnerable PRC will be subject to a General Collateral attack if the vehicle is unaffected as the round was pretty close.

Same for if the round never hit the vehicle, there are enough rounds dropping into the area to require vulnerable PRC to take stock and possibly be affected, this time as just your garden variety vulnerable unit, same as someone in a building.

I know it is more of a realism PoV but helps me get my head around what's happening.

 

[mgmasl]

Because you are using the Area Target Type (C3.33 AREA TARGET TYPE: ...All (including friendly) non-Aerial units in the target hex can be hit (even by WP), except for those immune as per 3.4...; D.8 COLLATERAL ATTACKS: Generally, when a vehicle is in a Location where occupants are subjected to incoming FP or a To Kill DR, that vehicle's Vulnerable PRC can also be affected by that attack. This effect vs Vulnerable PRC is called a Collateral Attack, and can occur in two ways. The first is via an attack that does not have the vehicle as its predesignated target (e.g., Small Arms Fire, OBA, or use of the Infantry or Area Target Type); this type of attack affects the PRC normally (i.e., causes a General Collateral Attack since it applies equally to all occupants of that Location; A7.4) & D.8B GENERAL: When a vehicle is subjected to (but not destroyed, etc. by) FP which is not required to predesignate it as the target, any Vulnerable PRC in/on it are subject to a General Collateral Attack as per D.8 above, but modified normally for range, Hindrances, TEM/CE DRM, etc. — just as if the Vulnerable PRC were the only target being attacked. ,...) and all that is needed is to hit the target area. If this were not the case one would have to hit say a stationary vehicle in a target hex in order to get a hit in the target hex while using ATT. This is simply not true.

• EX: You have a stationary CE StuG IIIB in an OG hex and you're firing ATT from a 82mm mortar. You will get a hit in the hex (area) on a DR 1 greater than it takes to hit the StuG (small target size) and will get an 8FP +2 CE DRM collateral effects vs the crew as long as you hit the hex regardless of the fact you may or may not have also hit the vehicle.

To further clarify this let's say there was also an infantry MMC in the hex. You certainly can't say you must hit the StuG in order to hit the infantry unit! Thus you wouldn't need to hit the vehicle to have a General Collateral effect on any vulnerable PRC on the vehicle (D.8B) either. The same is true for a moving/motion vehicle. You do not need to hit the vehicle nor pay the DRMs to do so to inflict a General Collateral Attack on the vulnerable PRC. ATT does not predesignate the vehicle as the target, but simply must hit the area in order to affect any vulnerable PRC (tough the fact you may have also hit the vehicle is relatively immaterial as either way the vulnerable PRC will take a General Collateral Attack).

Even to place Smoke in a hex, any size DRM from a vehicle has to be used (if alone in the hex?) and no Smoke placed at all if missing “the hex“ by adding the size drm.

I don’t think there is a “hex” hit at all except if no target in the hex. If any target each one of them has to be hit to resolve any effect vs each of them. I think General collateral attack is meaning any attack hitting the vehicles and any other target in the hex, but IMHO a vehicle and its PRC are an only target for any purpose. Ie if no hit on the vehicle it’s not possible to resolve any effect on the PRC. A diff issue is if fire is ineffective vs the AFV and do not resolved vs the AFV but only vs exposed PRC.

In a DC attack vs an AFV with 12+ says.. “no resolve vs AFV or its PRC” and @Resolve only vs other unarmored units in AFV’s Location,... ie AFV and PRC are diff target of other unarmored targets in the location.

in EX 3.332 says “in both cases, if the vehicle was nos destroyed, its ... vulnerable PRC would be subject to a General Collateral Attack”.. IMHO the both cases are: 1) AFV is hit.. and 2) Truck is hit.. it doesn’t say “at anycase any hit on the hex is resolved vs vulnerable PRC”

suppose an attack vs a moving truck with passengers using IFT. Do you think you may hit the passengers and not the truck because not adding +2 for motion vs the passengers?

Anyway, a Q&A will be fantastic if not clear enough in the rules as written.

 

[Larry]

D8.B GENERAL:

When a vehicle is subjected to (but not destroyed, etc. by) FP which is not required to predesignate it as the target, any Vulnerable PRC in/on it are subject to a General Collateral Attack as per D.8 above, but modified normally for range, Hindrances, TEM/CE DRM, etc. -- just as if the Vulnerable PRC were the only target being attacked. Additionally, the Vulnerable PRC of any other vehicle in the same Location are also subject to the same General Collateral Attack (but possibly with different modifiers due to their CE/Motion status, etc.). A General Collateral Attack is just a special name for the application of the original attack to a vehicle's Vulnerable PRC. (See Collateral Attack Table and Example at the top of the next page.)

As if the PRC were the only target ... "if." The vehicle must be subjected to FP. If the vehicle is not subjected to FP, there is no general collateral attack.

 

[MajorDomo]

I find it strange yesterday that when my mortar fired on an AFV start MP, which was starting an Armored Assault that I could only affect the AFV.

Rich

 

[Mister T]

I find it strange yesterday that when my mortar fired on an AFV start MP, which was starting an Armored Assault that I could only affect the AFV.

Rich

I would find it strange too, as it is a kind of impulse movement (see D14.32 & D14.33), with the AFV spending 1 MP and the infantry 0 MF, so both units can possibly be hit imo.

 

[Larry]

Would you find it strange to hit the armored assault moving infantry (+0) and miss the vehicle (+2)?

 

[Eagle4ty]

Would you find it strange to hit the armored assault moving infantry (+0) and miss the vehicle (+2)?

Probably the best thing to do then is try to always have a vehicle in-motion and/or a small target type vehicle in a hex with a stack of infantry if at all possible. It would then be harder for a mortar for example to hit the hex (since presumably you must hit the vehicle to have an effect in the hex) and effect the infantry than if they (infantry) were simply in the hex by themselves.

 

[Larry]

A concealed unit and an unconcealed unit in a hex can have two outcomes, one miss, one hit. We don't roll on the IFT for the missed concealed unit simply because the unconcealed unit was hit on the ATT.

 

[mgmasl]

Probably the best thing to do then is try to always have a vehicle in-motion and/or a small target type vehicle in a hex with a stack of infantry if at all possible. It would then be harder for a mortar for example to hit the hex (since presumably you must hit the vehicle to have an effect in the hex) and effect the infantry than if they (infantry) were simply in the hex by themselves.

Any independent target may be hit with its own DRMs.. only question is if vehicle+Its PRC are ONE target or TWO different targets. If ONE target both of them are hit together with same DRMs -motion, size...- using ATT, ITT or VTT.. if TWO targets VTT affect both because Specific Collateral attack, ITT/ATT may hit PRC and/or vehicle because different DRMs.. vehicle will add motion, size... and PRC don’t.. I suppose only TEM for PRC if ITT or nothing if ATT

I’m in the ONE target league

 

[Sparafucil3]

Probably the best thing to do then is try to always have a vehicle in-motion and/or a small target type vehicle in a hex with a stack of infantry if at all possible. It would then be harder for a mortar for example to hit the hex (since presumably you must hit the vehicle to have an effect in the hex) and effect the infantry than if they (infantry) were simply in the hex by themselves.

A vehicle in motion only provides cover in certain situations. With HE, you can hit the Infantry and miss the Vehicle based on different DRMs (moving, small, etc). There has been a huge debate here about vehicle target size and "hitting a hex" with ATT for Smoke purposes. I still believe Target Size applies. Some do not. I believe Albany has a specific rule stating that vehicle size does not matter when shooting Smoke. I don't know if the question has ever been put to Perry. As I recall, @klasmalmstrom does not believe it applies. -- jim

 

[klasmalmstrom]

A vehicle in motion only provides cover in certain situations. With HE, you can hit the Infantry and miss the Vehicle based on different DRMs (moving, small, etc). There has been a huge debate here about vehicle target size and "hitting a hex" with ATT for Smoke purposes. I still believe Target Size applies. Some do not. I believe Albany has a specific rule stating that vehicle size does not matter when shooting Smoke. I don't know if the question has ever been put to Perry. As I recall, @klasmalmstrom does not believe it applies.

I think I do think it applies.

The C6 TARGET-BASED HIT DETERMINATION DRM chart does not say it's NA to Area Target Type, and I don't think there is any exception in the rules proper.

 

[Eagle4ty]

That is correct that Klas & I disagree on this point IIRC. My contention was always the target size does not matter to effect an ATT hit in the hex but only matters if the vehicle is actually hit or not. Klas' contention is that you must predesignate the vehicle as the target in order to attain a hit in the hex (area) which I feel violates the inherent principal of Area Target Type & B.8B. where it states: "The first is via an attack that does not have the vehicle as its predesignated target (e.g., Small Arms Fire, OBA, or use of the Infantry or Area Target Type); this type of attack affects the PRC normally (i.e., causes a General Collateral Attack since it applies equally to all occupants of that Location; A7.4)." Meh, we'd probably resolve it with a dr [EXC unless a Q&A ruled otherwise]. All is good!

 

[Sparafucil3]

That is correct that Klas & I disagree on this point IIRC. My contention was always the target size does not matter to effect an ATT hit in the hex but only matters if the vehicle is actually hit or not. Klas' contention is that you must predesignate the vehicle as the target in order to attain a hit in the hex (area) which I feel violates the inherent principal of Area Target Type & B.8B. where it states: "The first is via an attack that does not have the vehicle as its predesignated target (e.g., Small Arms Fire, OBA, or use of the Infantry or Area Target Type); this type of attack affects the PRC normally (i.e., causes a General Collateral Attack since it applies equally to all occupants of that Location; A7.4)." Meh, we'd probably resolve it with a dr [EXC unless a Q&A ruled otherwise]. All is good!

When I first started playing, I was confused by ATT. I still believe ASL would be well served if there was a HEX TT which would hit and then add the TH DRM's as DRM's on the effect table. It is silly to me that a Jeep in a hex makes it harder to place SMOKE in that hex. JMO, YMMV. -- jim

 

[Eagle4ty]

When I first started playing, I was confused by ATT. I still believe ASL would be well served if there was a HEX TT which would hit and then add the TH DRM's as DRM's on the effect table. It is silly to me that a Jeep in a hex makes it harder to place SMOKE in that hex. JMO, YMMV. -- jim

Still is silly and violates the principals of ATT in the first place (IMHO). This (ATT) was a new rule that didn't exist in SL and so had to be kind of made up as they went along. Though the general idea was valid I believe, it is a VERY poorly worded (or possibly incomplete) set of rules covering what I consider to be a relatively easy situation. Like you I would have liked to see a more thought out process (or at least presentation) and perhaps as you pointed out a more precise wording for the basis of the rule.

 

[Ricardo Garcia]

I thought that when you are firing smoke, you are targeting a hex, not specific units, thus no target based modifiers would be used, since the smoke would not be hitting them but the hex. If it were WP, that would be a different story, since it could affect specific units. Is there a Q&A regarding this issue?

 

[MajorDomo]

What would be nice is an official MMP chart, like the excellent Spilky charts, with the next Action Pack that covers ATT situations, Smoke, Armored Assault with applicable modifiers.

The Korean CVPA two sided chart from Schwerepunkt is awesome.