Motion fire?

Mister T

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
1,680
Location
Bruxelles
Country
llFrance
A vehicle in motion at the beginning of the enemy player turn.
It is fired at in Prep, which results in immo (pass the immo TC).
Now the immobilized vehicle fires back in its next Defensive fire. What are the firer-based mods?
 

Eagle4ty

Forum Guru
Joined
Nov 7, 2007
Messages
6,913
Reaction score
5,094
Location
Eau Claire, Wi
Country
llUnited States
Since per C.8 it would have been considered a MOVING VEHICULAR TARGET it would be subject to Bounding Fire penalties on its shot (at the very least).

[EDIT] Without additional information one cannot adequately provide all the Firer Based TH modifiers.
 
Last edited:

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Case C⁴ does not apply, which is what I think you are interested in. As for other firer-based DRM I cannot say.

JR
 

Mister T

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
1,680
Location
Bruxelles
Country
llFrance
I was indeed interested whether motion fire would apply or not. C4 does not seem to apply indeed. Funny thing is fire effectiveness has increased as a result of being immo.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
I was indeed interested whether motion fire would apply or not. C4 does not seem to apply indeed. Funny thing is fire effectiveness has increased as a result of being immo.
The really odd part is that the vehicle as a target is still subject to case J. C6.1 says the vehicle "was/is in Motions status during that Player Turn." C5.35 says it must currently have Motion status. Of course as a target it would immediately become eligible for point blank fire [case L, C6.3]. I'm guessing the inconsistency between the various rules was not noticed. Of course it's possible that it's all as intended.

JR
 

Mister T

Elder Member
Joined
Aug 12, 2006
Messages
4,204
Reaction score
1,680
Location
Bruxelles
Country
llFrance
The really odd part is that the vehicle as a target is still subject to case J.
Indeed. This is what leads me to ask because this did not seem consistent. A kind of case B would make sense.
 

Magpie

Member
Joined
Feb 20, 2019
Messages
252
Reaction score
74
Country
llAustralia
Indeed. This is what leads me to ask because this did not seem consistent. A kind of case B would make sense.
It's two very different things though.
Case J is the effects of the target moving and the difficulties caused by having to track the target.
Case C is the far greater effects of the firer themselves moving.
 

Larry

Elder Member
Joined
Oct 29, 2003
Messages
5,383
Reaction score
1,736
Location
Guada La Habra
Country
llUnited States
Since per C.8 it would have been considered a MOVING VEHICULAR TARGET it would be subject to Bounding Fire penalties on its shot (at the very least).

[EDIT] Without additional information one cannot adequately provide all the Firer Based TH modifiers.
Let's parse this.

A vehicle is considered a moving target for To Hit/Effects purposes only if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, or used VBM (D2.3), or began its MPh in Motion (D2.4), or is currently in Motion. A Stopped (D2.13) vehicle is also treated as a moving target if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex, used VBM, or began its MPh in Motion. Thus a Non-Stopped vehicle is a moving, Mobile (D.7) vehicle that has not expended a Stop MP (D2.13) since its last Start MP (D2.12) expenditure. Expenditure of MP for other purposes (such as loading/unloading, Bog Removal attempts, or VCA changes) do not by themselves qualify a vehicle as a moving target although they too allow Defensive First Fire shots vs it.
During this player turn, the vehicle as not entered a new hex, has not used VBM, did not begin its MPH in motion. The vehicle has no MPh in the other player turn. That leave "is currently in Motion." Once it is immobilized, it is no longer currently in motion. Therefore, on subsequent shots, the vehicle is not a motion target under C.8.

The next sentence has interesting application -- "began its MPh in Motion." But it is during the current player turn and this vehicle does not have a MPh in this player turn. This sentence is NA.

The case J issue raises a different issue -- "was in Motion." Despite the inapplicability of C.8, the past tense provision of C6.1 without the need for "its MPh" makes the now immobilized vehicle a motion target. Add +2.

But the question is about firer based DRM. C4 states

A Motion/Non-Stopped vehicle which is moving and wishes to fire without stopping
Per C.8, the immobilized vehicle firing in the DFPh is not a motion or non-stopped vehicle. The vehicle does not use C4, C, or B. It just shoots.
 

Maurizizio

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
381
Reaction score
400
Location
Florida
First name
Maurizio
Country
llUnited States
Dear all, I have read the long trail, but still not clear for "my" situation. Here below the challenge:
During the Mph the opponent move his AFV to a new hex, it stays in motion. During the Defensive Fire Phase, the AFV gets immobilized (the crew pass the TC). During the Final Fire Phase the AFV wish to fire. Which are the modifier? In my opinion those are:
  • case B +3 (the AFV is in woods) - because of C.8: A vehicle is considered a moving target for To Hit/Effects purposes only if during the current Player Turn it has entered a new hex,
  • case C +2 because is firing in AFPh
  • case L (PBF) is not applicable - because "if ..... and/or the firer is in-Motion/Non-Stopped/Aerial".
Is my understanding correct?
 

Brian W

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
7,216
Reaction score
1,024
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
To be clear, we are talking about the AFPh, not "Final Fire Phase" (?).

Case B is NA if a vehicle has entered a new hex during that MPh (C5.2). Case C applies, which is +3 (Case B in woods) + 1/2/3 for Stabalized Gun/T or ST turret/No Turret. An immobile vehicle is not in Motion, so Case L may apply.
 

Maurizizio

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
381
Reaction score
400
Location
Florida
First name
Maurizio
Country
llUnited States
To be clear, we are talking about the AFPh, not "Final Fire Phase" (?).
Sorry, yes, Advance Fire Phase.

Case B is NA if a vehicle has entered a new hex during that MPh (C5.2). Case C applies, which is +3 (Case B in woods) + 1/2/3 for Stabalized Gun/T or ST turret/No Turret. An immobile vehicle is not in Motion, so Case L may apply.
Thanks, so in your view we apply a +5 (is a T AFV), but Case L may apply despite the "Non Stopped" reference in the Case L definition because now the SFV is immobile. Correct?

Thanks for being responsive so quickly. Appreciated
 

Brian W

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
7,216
Reaction score
1,024
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
Stopped/Non-stopped are definitions/conditions/states of being that only apply during a unit's MPh. During all other phases a vehicle is either in Motion or not in Motion.
 

Maurizizio

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
381
Reaction score
400
Location
Florida
First name
Maurizio
Country
llUnited States
Stopped/Non-stopped are definitions/conditions/states of being that only apply during a unit's MPh. During all other phases a vehicle is either in Motion or not in Motion.
Thanks, this seems to be an elegant solution and yet the Q&A states.
Does a vehicle which moves into a new hex and bogs there remain a moving target for the rest of that Player Turn?
Yes.
Therefore, the AFV is considered moving target (+2 DRM) to be hit, but stopped vehicle / non in Motion (and therefore Case L is applicable as firer. So if I move an AFV ADJACENT to a Target in my Mph, spend one point to stop, in the following AFPh my To Hit roll will have the -2 DRM for Case L. Understood, thanks.
 

jrv

Forum Guru
Joined
May 25, 2005
Messages
21,998
Reaction score
6,206
Location
Teutoburger Wald
Country
llIceland
Thanks, this seems to be an elegant solution and yet the Q&A states.
Does a vehicle which moves into a new hex and bogs there remain a moving target for the rest of that Player Turn?
Yes.
Therefore, the AFV is considered moving target (+2 DRM) to be hit, but stopped vehicle / non in Motion (and therefore Case L is applicable as firer. So if I move an AFV ADJACENT to a Target in my Mph, spend one point to stop, in the following AFPh my To Hit roll will have the -2 DRM for Case L. Understood, thanks.
A moving target vs a non-moving target is the third degree of movement-related freedom, Motion vs not-in-Motion and Stopped vs non-Stopped being the other two. The q&a is correct in what it says, a unit that moves into a new hex remains a moving target for the rest of that player turn. If it bogs, it becomes Stopped during its MPh, and after its MPh it is not-in-Motion, but still a moving target (C.8) in all cases. The three degrees of freedom for movement-related terms are not as interchangeable as the words describing their states might suggest.

JR
 
Last edited:

Brian W

Elder Member
Joined
Jan 29, 2003
Messages
7,216
Reaction score
1,024
Location
USA
Country
llUnited States
Thanks, this seems to be an elegant solution and yet the Q&A states.
Does a vehicle which moves into a new hex and bogs there remain a moving target for the rest of that Player Turn?Yes. Therefore, the AFV is considered moving target (+2 DRM) to be hit, but stopped vehicle / non in Motion (and therefore Case L is applicable as firer. So if I move an AFV ADJACENT to a Target in my Mph, spend one point to stop, in the following AFPh my To Hit roll will have the -2 DRM for Case L. Understood, thanks.
Since the target status of a firing unit has nothing to do with a firing unit's TH DRM, it is a moot point.

A unit can be in ONE, and only ONE, of the following states:
  • Stopped
  • Non-Stopped
  • In Motion
  • Not in Motion
However, any of the above units can also be a Moving target. And all except a vehicle in Motion can be "Not a Moving target".
 

Maurizizio

Senior Member
Joined
Jan 18, 2018
Messages
381
Reaction score
400
Location
Florida
First name
Maurizio
Country
llUnited States
This is one of those days in which I regret I stopped play monopoly and bought ASL ..... :)
 
Top