Motion AFV in bypass of wooden building that is rubbled by DC

clubby

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What happens to the in Motion BU CT AFV? We came to three possible conclusions:

1. AFV stays in bypass in rubble. Doesn't seem likely because you can't bypass rubble.

2. AFV is moved to rubbled building location.

3. AFV is moved to rubbled building location and takes a Bog check.

We thought it might be 3 but we couldn't determine the drm for the Bog check. Thanks.
 

Robin Reeve

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I would say 3 too.
Note that the vehicle in bypass was already in the building location.
So when Rubble occurs, it doesn't change its Location. It simply is not in bypass anymore.
B24.11 ... All unarmored occupants (including SW) of a rubbled building level are eliminated (see 24.121 for effects on an AFV).

B24.121 Falling rubble transforms any non-Water Obstacle terrain it falls on into a rubble counter at ground level and eliminates any non-armored (including non-AFV wrecks) or OT AFV unit/Fortifications/TB in that hex. Each surviving armored unit must immediately check for Bog (even if its Bog Check caused that rubble; 23.41)
 
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Brian W

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What happens to a vehicle in bypass on a Narrow Street when the building ADJACENT, whose hexside is shared by the bypassing vehicle, to the one the vehicle is bypassing is Rubbled? Is the vehicle moved INTO the building? What it if is not a fully tracked AFV?
 

Robin Reeve

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What happens to a vehicle in bypass on a Narrow Street when the building ADJACENT, whose hexside is shared by the bypassing vehicle, to the one the vehicle is bypassing is Rubbled? Is the vehicle moved INTO the building? What it if is not a fully tracked AFV?
The vehicle is assumed to be in one of the hexes which share the Narrow Street hexside.
B31.11 MOVEMENT: ... A unit Bypassing along a Narrow Street hexside is always assumed to be on the road within its hex—and, if that hexside is also a Crest Line hexside, in the lower of those two hexes.
But I think that you have a point, when the vehicle is not in the hex which is rubbled.
B31.15 RUBBLE: Placing a Rubble counter in a hex that contains a Narrow Street hexside eliminates any roadblock across that hexside, affects all units/equipment currently in Bypass (in either/both hexes) along that hexside as if they were hit by falling rubble (i.e., as per 24.121), and eliminates all mines along that hexside (in both hexes).
I would suggest that the vehicle is considered in the rubbled hex, but a Perry Sez seems useful here.
As for what happens to a non fully tracked AFV, I don't think that it would be a different situation than a bypassing non fully tracked vehicle in a rubbled hex: B24.121 applies.

Now, I don't see anything about exiting a rubble hex.
Fully tracked don't seem to have to pass a Bog check or to spend other MP than the cost of the terrain entered...
I suppose that non fully tracked vehicles - which are prohibited to enter Rubble - would exit normally.
 
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Binchois

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What happens to a vehicle in bypass on a Narrow Street when the building ADJACENT, whose hexside is shared by the bypassing vehicle, to the one the vehicle is bypassing is Rubbled? Is the vehicle moved INTO the building? What it if is not a fully tracked AFV?
So sorry for my last - way too hasty! - post. I didn't see B31.126! All I can say this game gives us everything sooner or later...

Great question, I think NOT addressed in the rules. Until officially settled, I like S&S's solution (put the vehicle in the rubble location), though that could create some strange game situations...

...could become the hip new way to escape VBP freeze!
 

clubby

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So, into the hex and no bog check because he's not "entering" the rubble hex?
 

Binchois

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So, into the hex and no bog check because he's not "entering" the rubble hex?
I think your OP question has been answered above. A closed-top AFV in bypass of a rubbled building would take a bog check (B24.121). Non-armored or OT AFV would be destroyed. Really, the rubble rules are a bit vague as neither B24.11 nor 24.121 explicitly state that a bypassing AFV is subject to "falling rubble" (and is certainly NOT an "occupant" of the rubbled building), but I can't see another way to make sense of them (B31.15, btw, kinda implies that this is the correct way to interpret the basic rubble rules for bypassers of any building).

As for where to put a surviving vehicle, the RB doesn't say. It makes the most sense to say that the vehicle is no longer in bypass and is therefore now IN the rubble hex. This is how I would play it, but it certainly could use a Q&A to confirm (sorry to everyone who has already come to the same conclusion...I must be slow!:rolleyes:).

Indeed, the more I think about this, the more I am unsatisfied with that answer. Suddenly "moving" an AFV from a hexside CAFP into the hex proper can create now-you-see-em-now-you-don't situations which seem a bit too weird. Infantry often move abruptly from bypass into an obstacle (whenever pinned/broken or unloaded in bypass), but at least those moves are realistic enough and done within the confines of their own movement phase. While the RB states no such thing, a better rule might be to let the AFV remain "in bypass" but unable to expend any MP other than to start, delay, fire, and/or to leave the hex.

As for Brian's question: vehicles "in bypass" on a narrow road when the building on the adjacent hex (but same hexside) is rubbled creates a worse problem. Besides the rubble rules themselves (particularly B24.121), the operative rules seem to be the following:

B3.43
A road covered by rubble/debris (O1.3) is treated as non-existent

B31.15 RUBBLE: Placing a Rubble counter in a hex that contains a Narrow Street hexside eliminates any roadblock across that hexside, affects all units/equipment currently in Bypass (in either/both hexes) along that hexside as if they were hit by falling rubble (i.e., as per 24.121), and eliminates all mines along that hexside (in both hexes).

B31.126 RUBBLE/BLAZE/WRECK: All Bypass along a Narrow Street hexside is NA if either/both of the hexes forming that hexside contain(s) another vehicle/wreck in Bypass along that hexside, a Blaze counter [EXC: burning wreck along another hexside], and/or a Rubble counter. No wreck (or Immobile vehicle) on a Narrow Street may be removed as per D10.4.
After thinking about this, I don't think I like moving the bypassing vehicle afterall. There definitely needs to be a Q&A on this and an errata issued as it makes little sense to do anything beyond the requirements of B31.15. Absent any official ruling, I think I would play that any surviving vehicle in bypass (on the far hexside of such a rubbled, narrow street) would remain in bypass on the hexside. However, the road itself would cease to exist and be considered rubble as per rule. Once the vehicle exits, bypass of that hexside (either side) would no longer be possible.
 

MajorDomo

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This seems like a common sense issue between two players, not clearly covered in the rules.

Would seem to me that rubble affects all occupants in the rubbled hex and you should apply the effects of rubble to the bypassing AFV.

A closed top vehicle takes a bog check and is now in rubble.

Yes LOS may change to the occupants, as LOS also changes to other units around the now pile of rubble. Could be same level LOS, now blocked or from higher levels, now clear, but the new LOS situations are all covered by the rules.

This happens very rarely and I would not lose playing time rules booking this one.

Rich
 

aneil1234

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After thinking about this, I don't think I like moving the bypassing vehicle afterall. There definitely needs to be a Q&A on this and an errata issued as it makes little sense to do anything beyond the requirements of B31.15. Absent any official ruling, I think I would play that any surviving vehicle in bypass (on the far hexside of such a rubbled, narrow street) would remain in bypass on the hexside. However, the road itself would cease to exist and be considered rubble as per rule. Once the vehicle exits, bypass of that hexside (either side) would no longer be possible.[/QUOTE]

This Is the most logical answer in my mind.
They are AFV's, not the TARDIS that can teleport sideways
I am personally against the idea of a bog check being required are they are ALREADY in the hex
But if the Q&A says otherwise, im in the MEH! category on that

Just my opinion for what its worth
 

MajorDomo

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A bog check is required of any closed top AFV in a hex when a single story building in that hex rubbles.

Since rubble is inherent terrain, I think that being in bypass or in the clear location under the marketplace should not allow the AFV to avoid a bog check.

Rich
 

clubby

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The thing is, I didn't enter the rubble hex. I'm able to setup in a rubble hex without a bog check and when I turn my VCA I do so without the entry penalty. We played it where we moved it into the rubbled building and took a bog check with the entry penalty. Of course, I had to take 3 bog checks to turn around and leave. :D
 

bendizoid

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I was wondering why you did'nt reverse outta there? Then thought, maybe he needed the movement points? Or, who am I to tell somebody about reverse movement, at this point what good would it do?
 

clubby

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Well, I was in motion and using platoon movement, so I still would have had to stop, start in reverse, back up, turn twice, stop, start going forward. It was cheaper to take the bogs. I was low ground pressure in deep snow, so anything 10 or less.
 
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